7 ms·

Note, when it says "1.6x faster" what is really means is "1.6 as fast" or "60% faster", or really "operates at 1.6x the speed of the baseline", not "1.6x increa

by venning 11y ago

Note, when it says "1.6x faster" what is really means is "1.6 as fast" or "60% faster", or really "operates at 1.6x the speed of the baseline", not "1.6x increase in speed". For example, when looking at the data for Chrome 48's "arrow" tests [1], the baseline number is 57,858,016 and the traceur number is 91,556,806, which is 158.2% of the baseline, but is reported as "1.6x faster". I know this seems like semantics, but "1.0x faster" sounds a lot like "twice as fast". (In this case, "1.0x faster" is reported as "identical" [2]). [1] https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/data.json#L1933 https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/data.json#... [2] https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/tasks%2Freport.js#L171 https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/tasks%2Fre...

atonse 11y ago
Yea in that example it might matter, but I'm seeing places where it's 10x or 100x slower. At that point, it hardly matters.
- venning 11y ago
  Correct, at the extremes, the numbers don't matter. But where it says "1.2x slower", it really means "84% of baseline" [1], which might be a bit misleading. [1] https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/data.json#L5681 https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/data.json#...
aschampion 11y ago
This is the convention when talking about speedup in software. 1x speedup means identical time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedup
- baddox 11y ago
  I agree based on my experience reading these types of comparisons. I've never thought there was any ambiguity to saying "1.6 times faster." It means performance_1 = performance_0 * 1.6.
- venning 11y ago
  If the phrase was "1.6x speedup" then I would agree and not have commented. But the phrase is "1.6x faster", which is a bit ambiguous. That there is disagreement among the commentariat both ways is indicative of ambiguity. (Though, I am assuming no trolling here.) While not exactly analogous, try replacing it with a percentage and re-evaluate: What does "60% faster" mean and what does "160% faster" mean?
- erydo 11y ago
  They did say "1.6x faster", not using the term "speedup" (which is terrible nomenclature too, but that's not the point). To say that something that's no faster is identical to something that's "1x faster" is a terrible confusion of thought. It's reasonable to expect that, for example, "1x faster" would mean "for a baseline of 1 operation per second, it's faster by 1 operation per second, i.e. a total of 2 operations per second." EDIT: Oh god, that's even before I saw the "1.2x slower" entries…
coldtea 11y ago
>Note, when it says "1.6x faster" what is really means is "1.6 as fast" or "60% faster", or really "operates at 1.6x the speed of the baseline", not "1.6x increase in speed". Isn't this always the case with such comparisons? One is meant to multiple initialValue by e.g. 1.6 (hence the "x", for multiple), not calculate initialValue + 1.6*initialValue.
- dcwca 11y ago
  No, the word faster means an increase by that amount. 100% faster means twice as fast. 1x faster means twice as fast. 100% as fast means no change. 1x as fast means no change. English, you subtle trickster!
  - mrcarrot 11y ago
    I'm not sure I've ever seen anything described as being '1x' faster, without any fractional part. It's such an uncommon usage, I really don't think you can categorically declare that '1x faster means twice as fast'.
    - idbehold 11y ago
      If I said A was 50% faster than B which is faster? Because it means the same as A is 0.5x faster than B.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        For "A was 50% faster than B", it could very easily be B which is faster -- and A is half its speed. What I meant to say in my parent comment is not the use of "faster" vs "as fast" in English, but that usually in those benchmarks "Nx" means N times the speed of the baseline.
        Zarel 11y ago
        In English, "50% faster" is unambiguously "1.5x as fast". No one would ever interpret it as meaning that B is faster.
vegabook 11y ago
Ummm, thank you for stating the obvious. 1.6 x faster is interpreted by anybody who has ever in their lives taken any undergraduate course even remotely related to mathematics, let alone anybody who has ever coded even the most simplistic mathematical algorithm, as meaning 60% faster. The fact that you have to specify this is ridiculous and sadly, serves to confirm stereotypes about front end coders being clueless. For avoidance of doubt: 1 * (ie "TIMES", as stated, not PLUS) 1.6 = 1.6 = 60% greater than 1. I hope this is not controversial.
- freyr 11y ago
  Anybody who paid attention during their undergraduate math class would know that mathematicians value clear, unambiguous language. "1.6X faster" might be obvious in the context (or not), but "1X faster" becomes a little murky and could easily be misinterpreted as 100% faster.
  - vegabook 11y ago
    Shut up Brezhnev. Everybody on planet America knows that 2x faster is 100% faster. Whose side are you on.
d0vs 11y ago
Thanks Captain Obvious

by venning 11y ago

atonse 11y ago

Yea in that example it might matter, but I'm seeing places where it's 10x or 100x slower. At that point, it hardly matters.

venning 11y ago
Correct, at the extremes, the numbers don't matter. But where it says "1.2x slower", it really means "84% of baseline" [1], which might be a bit misleading. [1] https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/data.json#L5681 https://github.com/kpdecker/six-speed/blob/master/data.json#...

aschampion 11y ago

This is the convention when talking about speedup in software. 1x speedup means identical time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedup

baddox 11y ago
I agree based on my experience reading these types of comparisons. I've never thought there was any ambiguity to saying "1.6 times faster." It means performance_1 = performance_0 * 1.6.
venning 11y ago
If the phrase was "1.6x speedup" then I would agree and not have commented. But the phrase is "1.6x faster", which is a bit ambiguous. That there is disagreement among the commentariat both ways is indicative of ambiguity. (Though, I am assuming no trolling here.) While not exactly analogous, try replacing it with a percentage and re-evaluate: What does "60% faster" mean and what does "160% faster" mean?
erydo 11y ago
They did say "1.6x faster", not using the term "speedup" (which is terrible nomenclature too, but that's not the point). To say that something that's no faster is identical to something that's "1x faster" is a terrible confusion of thought. It's reasonable to expect that, for example, "1x faster" would mean "for a baseline of 1 operation per second, it's faster by 1 operation per second, i.e. a total of 2 operations per second." EDIT: Oh god, that's even before I saw the "1.2x slower" entries…

coldtea 11y ago

>Note, when it says "1.6x faster" what is really means is "1.6 as fast" or "60% faster", or really "operates at 1.6x the speed of the baseline", not "1.6x increase in speed". Isn't this always the case with such comparisons? One is meant to multiple initialValue by e.g. 1.6 (hence the "x", for multiple), not calculate initialValue + 1.6*initialValue.

dcwca 11y ago
No, the word faster means an increase by that amount. 100% faster means twice as fast. 1x faster means twice as fast. 100% as fast means no change. 1x as fast means no change. English, you subtle trickster!
- mrcarrot 11y ago
  I'm not sure I've ever seen anything described as being '1x' faster, without any fractional part. It's such an uncommon usage, I really don't think you can categorically declare that '1x faster means twice as fast'.
  - idbehold 11y ago
    If I said A was 50% faster than B which is faster? Because it means the same as A is 0.5x faster than B.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      For "A was 50% faster than B", it could very easily be B which is faster -- and A is half its speed. What I meant to say in my parent comment is not the use of "faster" vs "as fast" in English, but that usually in those benchmarks "Nx" means N times the speed of the baseline.
      - Zarel 11y ago
        In English, "50% faster" is unambiguously "1.5x as fast". No one would ever interpret it as meaning that B is faster.

vegabook 11y ago

Ummm, thank you for stating the obvious. 1.6 x faster is interpreted by anybody who has ever in their lives taken any undergraduate course even remotely related to mathematics, let alone anybody who has ever coded even the most simplistic mathematical algorithm, as meaning 60% faster. The fact that you have to specify this is ridiculous and sadly, serves to confirm stereotypes about front end coders being clueless. For avoidance of doubt: 1 * (ie "TIMES", as stated, not PLUS) 1.6 = 1.6 = 60% greater than 1. I hope this is not controversial.

freyr 11y ago
Anybody who paid attention during their undergraduate math class would know that mathematicians value clear, unambiguous language. "1.6X faster" might be obvious in the context (or not), but "1X faster" becomes a little murky and could easily be misinterpreted as 100% faster.
- vegabook 11y ago
  Shut up Brezhnev. Everybody on planet America knows that 2x faster is 100% faster. Whose side are you on.

d0vs 11y ago

Thanks Captain Obvious