6 ms·

German foundation says democracy is declining worldwide

65 points by imartin2k 11y ago

imartin2k 11y ago
Here is the link to the press release by the way. Not sure if it would be better to use that link. http://www.bfna.org/media_advisory/global-index-sees-tough-times-for-democratic-change http://www.bfna.org/media_advisory/global-index-sees-tough-t...
jhasse 11y ago
It's a pity they only analyzed developing countries. Would be great to sea how European countries and the USA would be ranked in comparison.
- rogersmith 11y ago
  They didnt include EU and US because democracy there is dead and buried.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Even if that was true, there's more to Europe than the EU.
    - rogersmith 11y ago
      Non EU European countries are actually included mind. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_bailout_referendum,_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_bailout_referendum,_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_r... und so wieder... Please entertain me with tales of how democracy in EU is alive and well... Not even going to touch democracy in the US, current presidential campaign speaks for itself...
      - rogersmith 11y ago
        yet downvoting me won't make that kool aid taste less bitter :)
  - pizza234 11y ago
    With vague enough definitions, you can make all sort of statements, without worrying of them being falsified. /sarcasm.
vmorgulis 11y ago
> ... and an increase in religion's influence in political and legal institutions. It's local. It's not worldwide.
dvfjsdhgfv 11y ago
Here's the link to the actual index mentioned in the article: http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/status-index/ http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/status-index/
yummyfajitas 11y ago
The news report is wildly misleading, the underlying study barely measures democracy at all. A more honest name would be the "governments that do what Bertelsmann Stiftung wants them to do index". http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/methodology/ http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/methodology/ Various non-democratic elements that they include in the methodology are "No interference of religious dogmas", "market based competition", "anti-monopoly policy", "anti-inflation policy", "social safety nets", "equal opportunity" (under welfare regime), "GNI cc PPP rescaled", "education index", and all sorts of other things. I'm all in favor of market based competition and anti-inflation, but you can totally have a democracy that lacks these things - Greece, for example. Voters might be influenced by religious dogmas and vote against market competition and equal opportunity; this is a feature of democracy.
- sabertoothed 11y ago
  I would disagree with your statement on religion. Because the common religions tend not to be democratic(#), the influence of religious dogmas could make a nation less democratic. EDIT: (#) but patriarchal / hierarchical / dogmatic / scripture-based / ...
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    That could be true, but if religion eliminates democracy then that should be reflected when measuring actual democracy. Similarly, if you want to measure incidence of lung cancer, you measure "# of people with lung cancer" not "A x # of smokers + B x # of people with lung cancer".
- pjc50 11y ago
  market based competition and anti-inflation, but you can totally have a democracy that lacks these things - Greece, for example. What? Greece is part of the Euro area and therefore under the ECB anti-inflation umbrella. This resulted in moderate inflation until the crisis at which point it's experienced deflation. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/inflation-cpi http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/inflation-cpi Greece also has market based competition under EU law; it's enshrined in the aquis communitaire.
_Codemonkeyism 11y ago
Not as misleading than the titles are the introductory sentences of the press release: "Democracy and models of social market economy are being challenged worldwide. At the same time, the influence of religion on political institutions and legal systems is on the rise."
lr4444lr 11y ago
"Democracy is declining worldwide", huh? I had no idea there were significant instances of rule by citizen majority since the Roman Republic eclipsed Hellenistic Greece, if you can even push it that late. Given that the HN forum is populated by so many technologists, I'm surprised more people aren't bothered by the loose and often wrong application of terminology.
- allemagne 11y ago
  You know very well what is meant by "democracy" here. This kind of pedantry is not useful.
  - lr4444lr 11y ago
    No, I genuinely don't know what is meant by "democracy" here. The BTI is a complex measure that appears to include several aspects of national development which have nothing to do with direct representation of the popular citizen will. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann_Transformation_Index https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann_Transformation_Ind... (I wish I could get the original study, but it's not free.)
- taejo 11y ago
  The word "democracy" has, surprisingly, shifted slightly in meaning over the last 2500 years or so. The most unfortunate part of this is a small but annoying cadre of "America is not a democracy, it's a republic" pedants.
  - lr4444lr 11y ago
    I disagree. The founders of the United States very deliberately avoided democracy, as strictly defined, in lieu of a complex layering of representative government, to secure a set of values in public governance and personal life. That system has undergone evolution over time, and has as often as not hit "progress" when the law triumphed over the majority of popular opinion. In the briefing of this study, certain simplistic generalizations are made which I don't know that most people would agree with. The reporting should be clear.
danharaj 11y ago
Neoliberalism is not the same thing as democracy.

65 points by imartin2k 11y ago

Here is the link to the press release by the way. Not sure if it would be better to use that link. http://www.bfna.org/media_advisory/global-index-sees-tough-times-for-democratic-change http://www.bfna.org/media_advisory/global-index-sees-tough-t...

jhasse 11y ago

It's a pity they only analyzed developing countries. Would be great to sea how European countries and the USA would be ranked in comparison.

rogersmith 11y ago
They didnt include EU and US because democracy there is dead and buried.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Even if that was true, there's more to Europe than the EU.
  - rogersmith 11y ago
    Non EU European countries are actually included mind. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_bailout_referendum,_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_bailout_referendum,_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_r... und so wieder... Please entertain me with tales of how democracy in EU is alive and well... Not even going to touch democracy in the US, current presidential campaign speaks for itself...
    - rogersmith 11y ago
      yet downvoting me won't make that kool aid taste less bitter :)
- pizza234 11y ago
  With vague enough definitions, you can make all sort of statements, without worrying of them being falsified. /sarcasm.

vmorgulis 11y ago

> ... and an increase in religion's influence in political and legal institutions. It's local. It's not worldwide.

dvfjsdhgfv 11y ago

Here's the link to the actual index mentioned in the article: http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/status-index/ http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/status-index/

yummyfajitas 11y ago

The news report is wildly misleading, the underlying study barely measures democracy at all. A more honest name would be the "governments that do what Bertelsmann Stiftung wants them to do index". http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/methodology/ http://www.bti-project.org/en/index/methodology/ Various non-democratic elements that they include in the methodology are "No interference of religious dogmas", "market based competition", "anti-monopoly policy", "anti-inflation policy", "social safety nets", "equal opportunity" (under welfare regime), "GNI cc PPP rescaled", "education index", and all sorts of other things. I'm all in favor of market based competition and anti-inflation, but you can totally have a democracy that lacks these things - Greece, for example. Voters might be influenced by religious dogmas and vote against market competition and equal opportunity; this is a feature of democracy.

sabertoothed 11y ago
I would disagree with your statement on religion. Because the common religions tend not to be democratic(#), the influence of religious dogmas could make a nation less democratic. EDIT: (#) but patriarchal / hierarchical / dogmatic / scripture-based / ...
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  That could be true, but if religion eliminates democracy then that should be reflected when measuring actual democracy. Similarly, if you want to measure incidence of lung cancer, you measure "# of people with lung cancer" not "A x # of smokers + B x # of people with lung cancer".
pjc50 11y ago
market based competition and anti-inflation, but you can totally have a democracy that lacks these things - Greece, for example. What? Greece is part of the Euro area and therefore under the ECB anti-inflation umbrella. This resulted in moderate inflation until the crisis at which point it's experienced deflation. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/inflation-cpi http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/inflation-cpi Greece also has market based competition under EU law; it's enshrined in the aquis communitaire.

_Codemonkeyism 11y ago

Not as misleading than the titles are the introductory sentences of the press release: "Democracy and models of social market economy are being challenged worldwide. At the same time, the influence of religion on political institutions and legal systems is on the rise."

lr4444lr 11y ago

"Democracy is declining worldwide", huh? I had no idea there were significant instances of rule by citizen majority since the Roman Republic eclipsed Hellenistic Greece, if you can even push it that late. Given that the HN forum is populated by so many technologists, I'm surprised more people aren't bothered by the loose and often wrong application of terminology.

allemagne 11y ago
You know very well what is meant by "democracy" here. This kind of pedantry is not useful.
- lr4444lr 11y ago
  No, I genuinely don't know what is meant by "democracy" here. The BTI is a complex measure that appears to include several aspects of national development which have nothing to do with direct representation of the popular citizen will. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann_Transformation_Index https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann_Transformation_Ind... (I wish I could get the original study, but it's not free.)
taejo 11y ago
The word "democracy" has, surprisingly, shifted slightly in meaning over the last 2500 years or so. The most unfortunate part of this is a small but annoying cadre of "America is not a democracy, it's a republic" pedants.
- lr4444lr 11y ago
  I disagree. The founders of the United States very deliberately avoided democracy, as strictly defined, in lieu of a complex layering of representative government, to secure a set of values in public governance and personal life. That system has undergone evolution over time, and has as often as not hit "progress" when the law triumphed over the majority of popular opinion. In the briefing of this study, certain simplistic generalizations are made which I don't know that most people would agree with. The reporting should be clear.

danharaj 11y ago

Neoliberalism is not the same thing as democracy.