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I am considering outsourcing some dev work to Greece. The problem is the 70% social security. I can get good people in Greece for 1700 Euro/month, total cost 3k

I am considering outsourcing some dev work to Greece. The problem is the 70% social security. I can get good people in Greece for 1700 Euro/month, total cost 3k/month. However, in Hungary they cost only 2k/month. The Ukraine, Romania and Egypt are even cheaper. Greeks have great expertise in databases, but most outsourcing I need is front-end or monitoring stuff. Like most commentators have said, most of the good ones have left...

rantanplan 11y ago
Why would you pay their social security? You'd be looking for freelancers who they'd be taking care of that themselves.
- balfirevic 11y ago
  They will still be taking care of that out of what they get paid, I don't see any difference.
  - rantanplan 11y ago
    Huge difference. Since they're freelancers you're just going to be one of many clients. They will charge you only for the hours worked. This means that whatever their social security cost is, it's going to be spread out among their different clients. Also when you're a freelancer the social security cost is much lower anyway.
    - StavrosK 11y ago
      So what? You're still calculating the per month cost. Insurance us always going to be included in that.
      - rantanplan 11y ago
        It's not a "so what". Taking care of an employee's social security is a huge overhead for an employer. Also the OP is talking about "outsourcing" work to Greece. I really don't understand where social security comes in. By definition he's going to look for freelancers. Unless he's planning to open shop in Greece, for some weird reason, in which case social insurance is going to be the least of his problems.
        harywilke 11y ago
        As a freelancer, the cost to cover my taxes/social security will be calculated into any offer i give. I am in effect employing myself and you are contracting out an employee of my company. The rate given will need to cover the costs of my employees taxes and social security. True i can contract out myself to multiple clients per month and lower my rate by splitting the SS taxes between them. but, in Greece, you run a high risk of work being canceled/delayed and exposing yourself to tax liabilities. Don't get me started on companies that want you to cut an invoice then pay you months later. Putting yourself into a situation where you have income on the books, but not in the hand is a bad idea.
        balfirevic 11y ago
        > True i can contract out myself to multiple clients per month and lower my rate by splitting the SS taxes between them Even that doesn't matter, social security and taxes will be calculated in your hourly rate the same way whether you have multiple clients or you work full time for only one client.
        rantanplan 11y ago
        Doing contract work for Greek customers is out of the question for the reasons you mentioned. The only way it makes sense to work from Greece as a contractor is having foreign customers. Otherwise, you're better off working as a regular employee.
        StavrosK 11y ago
        As the other commenters said, it's simple. If you're a freelancer and need $1000 after everything, in Hungary the total cost is $1200 (figures pulled out of my ass) and in Greece the total cost is $2000. Who do you think is going to pay the extra cost? The Hungarian will quote you $12/hr and the Greek will quote you $20/hr. That said, my insurance is 200 euros/mo (fixed), so I'm not sure where the 70% figure is coming from. Maybe my insurance carrier (TSMEDE) is just cheaper.
        rantanplan 11y ago
lmartel 11y ago
Is the pool of outsourced workers really so small that you can say "Greeks have great expertise in databases" and have it mean anything?
zepolen 11y ago
Send me an email, my username at gmail.
djkoul69 11y ago
If you're interested in front-end work I'd be happy to help you out. Send me an email to this username at gmail.

rantanplan 11y ago

Why would you pay their social security? You'd be looking for freelancers who they'd be taking care of that themselves.

balfirevic 11y ago
They will still be taking care of that out of what they get paid, I don't see any difference.
- rantanplan 11y ago
  Huge difference. Since they're freelancers you're just going to be one of many clients. They will charge you only for the hours worked. This means that whatever their social security cost is, it's going to be spread out among their different clients. Also when you're a freelancer the social security cost is much lower anyway.
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    So what? You're still calculating the per month cost. Insurance us always going to be included in that.
    - rantanplan 11y ago
      It's not a "so what". Taking care of an employee's social security is a huge overhead for an employer. Also the OP is talking about "outsourcing" work to Greece. I really don't understand where social security comes in. By definition he's going to look for freelancers. Unless he's planning to open shop in Greece, for some weird reason, in which case social insurance is going to be the least of his problems.
      - harywilke 11y ago
        As a freelancer, the cost to cover my taxes/social security will be calculated into any offer i give. I am in effect employing myself and you are contracting out an employee of my company. The rate given will need to cover the costs of my employees taxes and social security. True i can contract out myself to multiple clients per month and lower my rate by splitting the SS taxes between them. but, in Greece, you run a high risk of work being canceled/delayed and exposing yourself to tax liabilities. Don't get me started on companies that want you to cut an invoice then pay you months later. Putting yourself into a situation where you have income on the books, but not in the hand is a bad idea.
        balfirevic 11y ago
        > True i can contract out myself to multiple clients per month and lower my rate by splitting the SS taxes between them Even that doesn't matter, social security and taxes will be calculated in your hourly rate the same way whether you have multiple clients or you work full time for only one client.
        rantanplan 11y ago
        Doing contract work for Greek customers is out of the question for the reasons you mentioned. The only way it makes sense to work from Greece as a contractor is having foreign customers. Otherwise, you're better off working as a regular employee.
      - StavrosK 11y ago
        As the other commenters said, it's simple. If you're a freelancer and need $1000 after everything, in Hungary the total cost is $1200 (figures pulled out of my ass) and in Greece the total cost is $2000. Who do you think is going to pay the extra cost? The Hungarian will quote you $12/hr and the Greek will quote you $20/hr. That said, my insurance is 200 euros/mo (fixed), so I'm not sure where the 70% figure is coming from. Maybe my insurance carrier (TSMEDE) is just cheaper.
        rantanplan 11y ago

lmartel 11y ago

Is the pool of outsourced workers really so small that you can say "Greeks have great expertise in databases" and have it mean anything?

zepolen 11y ago

Send me an email, my username at gmail.

djkoul69 11y ago

If you're interested in front-end work I'd be happy to help you out. Send me an email to this username at gmail.