4 ms·

It's not so terrible if you are in Greece. I would not call a 500euro base salary expensive, that might even get you someone with postgraduate studies in the cu

by cgio 11y ago

It's not so terrible if you are in Greece. I would not call a 500euro base salary expensive, that might even get you someone with postgraduate studies in the current conditions. On the law system I totally agree. Good for law related startups?

elorant 11y ago
Greek here. That 500 base salary doesn’t exist. While the nominal salary is quite low due to the huge unemployment issue, for computer programmers it is way beyond that. You’re looking at least at €1k monthly for an entry-level programmer. The real problem in Greece right now, as others have mentioned in this thread, is the insurance cost which accounts for 70% of the net salary someone receives. So if you want to pay €2k for a salary, the real cost for the corporation is about €3.5k. Which makes it really hard to employ experienced people unless you’re willing to have under-the-table agreements.
- iofj 11y ago
  Doesn't that just result in 90% of decent and up programmers illegally making €1k - €2k on freelancer.com or alike ? Then when it's enough to finance trip + 6 months emigrate to US or, well, anywhere but Greece ?
  - elorant 11y ago
    I've never been at freelancer or any equivalent site so I can't speak from personal experience. Aren't you expected to provide some kind of receipt on those sites for the money you're paid? In such a case you can't hide it from the local tax service. Unless you're providing fake receipts which sounds like an awful idea.
    - iofj 11y ago
      The receipts are between the middleman and either party, not between the participants in the transaction directly. So even if seller and buyer are in Greece, freelancer.com (warning: don't use them) is in Australia. Receipts won't make it to the authorities. Also: freelancer.com won't care if you use a fake identity, as they're extremely scummy and in this case it works to your advantage.
neurangotan 11y ago
Junior dev salaries with absolutely zero experience start at 800 net x 14. That translates to a total cost x 1.7 for the employer which is 1360. I am talking about devs that have never heard of a linked list. Most good people go abroad.
- acveilleux 11y ago
  OT... But while I've had to implement and used linked list tons of times (because C) I never use them anymore (because Python and Java Collections API.) Why is it an acid test of competence to you? For the theoretical knowledge they imply?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Not implementing it lately is ok. Having never heard of it, and not knowing the fundamentals means you're not a programmer, but just someone who dabbles with code. I wouldn't hire such a person not only for a C job, but not even for JS or Python.
  - dpark 11y ago
    > Why is it an acid test of competence to you? For the theoretical knowledge they imply? Because they are so basic. If you've never heard of a linked list, it means that you've got absolutely no education (formal or self-directed) in programming. (Even looking at the Java docs, you'd eventually notice the core LinkedList class.) If you've heard of a linked list but have no idea what it is, it means you've got a terrible education (if formal) or no curiosity (if self-directed). If you know what a linked list is but can't program one, it means you're incompetent. I can't imagine the existence of a competent dev who can't write a linked list class/struct/whatever.
  - neurangotan 11y ago
    Not knowing what a linked list is, is like a math major not knowing what an integral is. It is a super basic data structure and an integral data structure to a whole family of functional languages. A computer scientist right out of university should at least have heard of the basic data structures used in computer programs. Even if you don't know how to implement them you at least need to know how they work and their performance characteristics. I would not expect them to be able to implement one in C but at least they should what the fuck it is.

by cgio 11y ago

elorant 11y ago

Greek here. That 500 base salary doesn’t exist. While the nominal salary is quite low due to the huge unemployment issue, for computer programmers it is way beyond that. You’re looking at least at €1k monthly for an entry-level programmer. The real problem in Greece right now, as others have mentioned in this thread, is the insurance cost which accounts for 70% of the net salary someone receives. So if you want to pay €2k for a salary, the real cost for the corporation is about €3.5k. Which makes it really hard to employ experienced people unless you’re willing to have under-the-table agreements.

iofj 11y ago
Doesn't that just result in 90% of decent and up programmers illegally making €1k - €2k on freelancer.com or alike ? Then when it's enough to finance trip + 6 months emigrate to US or, well, anywhere but Greece ?
- elorant 11y ago
  I've never been at freelancer or any equivalent site so I can't speak from personal experience. Aren't you expected to provide some kind of receipt on those sites for the money you're paid? In such a case you can't hide it from the local tax service. Unless you're providing fake receipts which sounds like an awful idea.
  - iofj 11y ago
    The receipts are between the middleman and either party, not between the participants in the transaction directly. So even if seller and buyer are in Greece, freelancer.com (warning: don't use them) is in Australia. Receipts won't make it to the authorities. Also: freelancer.com won't care if you use a fake identity, as they're extremely scummy and in this case it works to your advantage.

neurangotan 11y ago

Junior dev salaries with absolutely zero experience start at 800 net x 14. That translates to a total cost x 1.7 for the employer which is 1360. I am talking about devs that have never heard of a linked list. Most good people go abroad.

acveilleux 11y ago
OT... But while I've had to implement and used linked list tons of times (because C) I never use them anymore (because Python and Java Collections API.) Why is it an acid test of competence to you? For the theoretical knowledge they imply?
- coldtea 11y ago
  Not implementing it lately is ok. Having never heard of it, and not knowing the fundamentals means you're not a programmer, but just someone who dabbles with code. I wouldn't hire such a person not only for a C job, but not even for JS or Python.
- dpark 11y ago
  > Why is it an acid test of competence to you? For the theoretical knowledge they imply? Because they are so basic. If you've never heard of a linked list, it means that you've got absolutely no education (formal or self-directed) in programming. (Even looking at the Java docs, you'd eventually notice the core LinkedList class.) If you've heard of a linked list but have no idea what it is, it means you've got a terrible education (if formal) or no curiosity (if self-directed). If you know what a linked list is but can't program one, it means you're incompetent. I can't imagine the existence of a competent dev who can't write a linked list class/struct/whatever.
- neurangotan 11y ago
  Not knowing what a linked list is, is like a math major not knowing what an integral is. It is a super basic data structure and an integral data structure to a whole family of functional languages. A computer scientist right out of university should at least have heard of the basic data structures used in computer programs. Even if you don't know how to implement them you at least need to know how they work and their performance characteristics. I would not expect them to be able to implement one in C but at least they should what the fuck it is.