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This also assumes that everyone can become a good programmer, which is IMO far from being the case. Programming is an ART, not everyone can be Bach or Picasso

This also assumes that everyone can become a good programmer, which is IMO far from being the case. Programming is an ART, not everyone can be Bach or Picasso even though most can slap paint on canvas or hit keys on a piano. It's actually a lot worse with software engineering because the end result doesn't only have aesthetic value but is an interconnected system that in many cases subsumes many facets of our everyday lives. Software engineering is hard and requires intelligence, creativity and experience. Pretending that everyone can be a good/effective software engineer through training alone is supremely naive, actively encouraging this sort of society is extremely dangerous. TL;DR There is no room for egalitarianism in software, it should be a meritocracy first and foremost, where the best are encouraged and those not cut out for it swiftly dropped from further participation. We have experienced what bad software engineers can do and the cost to society at large that they are directly responsible for. Let's not pretend that this new populist push will improve matters.

rileymat2 11y ago
My CRUD apps are super artful.
- armitron 11y ago
  Hopefully we don't end up relying on them for anything serious! All jokes aside, there is also the diluting factor to take into account. A lot of the mechanical/boring/repetitive software engineering type tasks (e.g. javascript/php/java code monkeys that spend half of their working hours looking up answers at stackoverflow.com and the other half trying to implement said answers by clumsily glueing together 3rd party code) can be expected to go away by automation in the not-too-distant future. Thus we end up with extreme dilution of the prime domain by substandard/incompetent coders.
mfoy_ 11y ago
Because if you can't be the best, don't even try. Right? Btw, ponus points for (in the context of this article) implying that Black and Hispanic children aren't smart enough to be software engineers.
- armitron 11y ago
  You can try all you want, and in fact I encourage everyone to do so. Let's not have populists plant the seeds that all it takes is government handouts (and also wave the carrot of future career ROI in front of people who don't know better) though. This is at best misdirection and manipulation by corrupt demagogues who know nothing about software or engineering. Unless of course there are others, besides hack job politicians, who are putting forth the same views?
  - mfoy_ 11y ago
    All this program is doing is attempting to give exposure to programming to young students who may not otherwise have an opportunity to do so. No matter how naturally gifted a student may be, the tools to learn and grow have to be put within their reach in the first place. The criticism this article is levying is how it is threatening to produce code monkeys instead of well-rounded software engineers. But that is because (I believe) that they are suggesting "programming" credits could be used in lieu of math/science credits to graduate. Which would create high school graduate who can program tolerably but have little to no skill doing anything else... aka a vocational training. The criticisms aren't "Well they won't be any good at it anyways." You're also making a very strong elitist stance on the matter. The tone of your comments strongly imply "software engineers are better than other people, only the chosen few may join our illustrious ranks!"
    - armitron 11y ago
      Disregarding your elitist stance comment (and your other race assertions -- SERIOUSLY?), which I thought were poor and totally mischaracterized what I wrote, I think that you are choosing to discard a lot of what past years have taught us about the American education system. Where you see "attempting to give exposure to programming" I see students being PUSHED by the environment (parents, teachers, peers) into doing something that they may very well not enjoy or be good at, simply because it's been reduced to a good CAREER. Is that something that we need to further encourage? Moreover, re: exposure to programming, I dare say that we don't need it _at all_ these days since it's everywhere. Knowing what we know about the American education system (ranked as among one of the worst in the world, every year) I think my interpretation is a lot more realistic than yours.

rileymat2 11y ago

My CRUD apps are super artful.

armitron 11y ago
Hopefully we don't end up relying on them for anything serious! All jokes aside, there is also the diluting factor to take into account. A lot of the mechanical/boring/repetitive software engineering type tasks (e.g. javascript/php/java code monkeys that spend half of their working hours looking up answers at stackoverflow.com and the other half trying to implement said answers by clumsily glueing together 3rd party code) can be expected to go away by automation in the not-too-distant future. Thus we end up with extreme dilution of the prime domain by substandard/incompetent coders.

mfoy_ 11y ago

Because if you can't be the best, don't even try. Right? Btw, ponus points for (in the context of this article) implying that Black and Hispanic children aren't smart enough to be software engineers.

armitron 11y ago
You can try all you want, and in fact I encourage everyone to do so. Let's not have populists plant the seeds that all it takes is government handouts (and also wave the carrot of future career ROI in front of people who don't know better) though. This is at best misdirection and manipulation by corrupt demagogues who know nothing about software or engineering. Unless of course there are others, besides hack job politicians, who are putting forth the same views?
- mfoy_ 11y ago
  All this program is doing is attempting to give exposure to programming to young students who may not otherwise have an opportunity to do so. No matter how naturally gifted a student may be, the tools to learn and grow have to be put within their reach in the first place. The criticism this article is levying is how it is threatening to produce code monkeys instead of well-rounded software engineers. But that is because (I believe) that they are suggesting "programming" credits could be used in lieu of math/science credits to graduate. Which would create high school graduate who can program tolerably but have little to no skill doing anything else... aka a vocational training. The criticisms aren't "Well they won't be any good at it anyways." You're also making a very strong elitist stance on the matter. The tone of your comments strongly imply "software engineers are better than other people, only the chosen few may join our illustrious ranks!"
  - armitron 11y ago
    Disregarding your elitist stance comment (and your other race assertions -- SERIOUSLY?), which I thought were poor and totally mischaracterized what I wrote, I think that you are choosing to discard a lot of what past years have taught us about the American education system. Where you see "attempting to give exposure to programming" I see students being PUSHED by the environment (parents, teachers, peers) into doing something that they may very well not enjoy or be good at, simply because it's been reduced to a good CAREER. Is that something that we need to further encourage? Moreover, re: exposure to programming, I dare say that we don't need it _at all_ these days since it's everywhere. Knowing what we know about the American education system (ranked as among one of the worst in the world, every year) I think my interpretation is a lot more realistic than yours.