5 ms·

I'm sorry to say that but there is no real injustices in western countries. Everybody has food, education, a minimal healthcare and even luxury products like sm

I'm sorry to say that but there is no real injustices in western countries. Everybody has food, education, a minimal healthcare and even luxury products like smartphone or TV. It's very different in Africa where life expectancy is near 45: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... A lot of problems in western countries comes from the society itself (how the society is organized and how it works) and most of them can't be solved with laws.

branchless 11y ago
I really dislike this line of thought. It reduces to: until living standards are as bad as Africa, don't complain. A recipe for getting living standards as bad as Africa.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Sounds like "Uncomfortable with privilege". I think that was the point of the comment - to make first world folks aware that their problems are first-world problems. In the big picture, maybe it doesn't matter exactly how comfortable 5% of the world is. Maybe the real issue is how bad things are in Africa. If people really all matter?
  - branchless 11y ago
    No this is a false choice. We can fight for equality at home and for better living standards abroad. The boomers are behaving disgustingly by ramping land prices in hock with the banks. It has sent living standards into free-fall for the young.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      I guess its the free market that 'disgusting'? Confused. Economic systems work a certain way. Demonizing a group that participates like everybody else is a curious notion. And probably not a route to a solution. I always find it a curious approach, taken by so many activists, to start by disaffecting the group that they claim is in power. How can it help to piss of and blame the actual people than are in a position to help?
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Housing is a free market? The mortgage interest deduction alone is the third largest tax break overall, costing $100 billion per year. Similarly, zoning regulations are rampant, preventing new housing from being built and therefore keeping house values higher for existing homeowners. Calling the US housing market "free" is a sad joke.
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        Huh. They're building a lot of housing around here, like a carpet spreading over the land. Nobody who wants a house has to go without. Maybe we're talking apples and oranges. City centers and highly urbanized areas will work very differently. But is it a civil right to have cheap housing downtown?
        branchless 11y ago
        We have a system that ensures all our surplus labour after essentials will be taken up by rent. The banks provide credit as required. It costs nothing to make. As productivity increases (or as we work longer) more credit is created to absorb the surplus via interest.
      - branchless 11y ago
        It's not a free market - you are confused.
    - vmorgulis 11y ago
      > The boomers are behaving disgustingly by ramping land prices in hock with the banks. It has sent living standards into free-fall for the young. It's not them. You would do the same if you had properties and kids. Realestate is a market. It's inside the money. Some regimes tried to change that by force but it doesn't work. Even if you kill all the richs, they are replaced by another group (lawyers or bureaucrats): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution I think it's not a fatality. It's just a lack of knowledge. We don't know enough of human group behaviour.
      - branchless 11y ago
        No I wouldn't because I'm not a scumbag. I understand the system, I have funds to participate yet I do not. I will also vote for a brighter tomorrow by trying to support land value tax. Boomers want "me me me" in the main.
        vmorgulis 11y ago
        It's not a problem of Will. If you think that, you might become a victim of "bad" people. Most people are not bad and do what they can. Even the wealthy do their best. Most of them have a family or friends to take care. Vote is useless. Big changes happens even during economic crisis or after wars.
  - armitron 11y ago
    The real issues to those living in the first-world, are and should be those which affect their everyday lives and the societies that will determine their future. I'm sorry to say that Africa doesn't really factor into all that. Peace, love and understanding for the entire planet sounds great but I have work to do and bills to pay. These sort of "reduce everything into rubble by equalizing" arguments provide nothing to the discussion but wishful thinking and meaningless utopianism.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      So many agree with that. See the movie 'Zardoz' for a dystopian future taken from that premise.
      - vmorgulis 11y ago
        I like a lot the Big Flying and Talking Head :-)
    - vmorgulis 11y ago
      > The real issues to those living in the first-world, are and should be those which affect their everyday lives and the societies that will determine their future. They can't change that. They had no writing. History of Africa begins with XIVth century. Our culture comes from the Greeks, Roman Empire and India. Even in the Middle Ages, the western technology was superior.
      - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
        > History of Africa begins with XIVth century. This is certainly one opinion, however on the other hand, we have actual reality.
  - unprepare 11y ago
    fallacy of relative privation or to reframe your argument: Maybe it doesnt matter how mysoginistic the US is, maybe the real issue is how bad things are in the middle east. Does that sound like something you agree with? we should cease all effort to improve conditions for women in the US because all of that effort should instead be expended on improving conditions for women in the middle east? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_fallacies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_...
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      I would say, it is hypocritical to worry about one's own cell phone bill to the exclusion of being concerned about other's real privation. I just caution: don't take yourself too seriously.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      That's not the fallacy of relative privation. The F.R.P. addresses arguments that appeal to unrelated problems elsewhere in the world. It's a fallacy because it's illogical: it doesn't matter that kids are starving in Japan, because nothing you do with your raisin bran is going to change that. But it does not follow that local problems are more, or even equally, deserving of attention that foreign ones.
      - unprepare 11y ago
        Maybe you have a solidly different understanding of that fallacy, but that lines up 100% from where i'm sitting. I'll even reword it into the right semantic order: "The US may have some minor societal issues, but its not as bad as africa, therefore those issues can be dismissed" What exactly is logical about claiming every problem in the US is able to be dismissed on the basis that its worse elsewhere - especially given that we are in a discussion about internal US demographics? How exactly is africa related to the growing proportion of elderly voters in the united states and the effects that has on youth populations?
        tptacek 11y ago
- vmorgulis 11y ago
  It was to say that we can't really solve the problems with politics. What we can expect from political movements is something already done or tried. It's about taxes or laws. People have the right to complain but they don't understand where the problems come from. They are often manipulate by parties to win the elections and nothing changes. Most of the defects we can see in westerns countries come from the way we are organized (with hierarchy, money and laws). African societies are more horizontal and people share more (the food for example). There is no homeless in most african cities (some in big ones).
Spooky23 11y ago
Awesome. All of our problems are solved. Thanks for letting us know!
- vmorgulis 11y ago
  "Verbal, dramatic, and situational irony are often used for emphasis in the assertion of a truth. The ironic form of simile, used in sarcasm, and some forms of litotes can emphasize one's meaning by the deliberate use of language which states the opposite of the truth, denies the contrary of the truth, or drastically and obviously understates a factual connection." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
unprepare 11y ago
>Everybody has food USDA says that 14% of all households in the united states suffer from food insecurity.[1] >no real injustices in western countries institutional racism, police killings, homelessness, drug addiction, political oligarchy, rapidly rising secondary education costs, etc. These problems dont vanish because someone else has it worse, that's a well known fallacy called the fallacy of relative privation[2] [1] http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/key-statistics-graphics.aspx#householdtype http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/foo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_fallacies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_...
- vmorgulis 11y ago
  > institutional racism, police killings, homelessness, drug addiction, political oligarchy, rapidly rising secondary education costs, etc. There is no effective solution to any of these problems. Nothing works. They are consequences of the money. We use money because we do not understand each other. Money is far more than a commodity. It has its own live and rules. What is possible is to do small tunings with taxes and laws. That's all. If you take big revolutionnary measures, you will destabilize the money system and everything will be broken like in 1929. Another approach is real anarchist communism but it doesn't scale. It works only locally. That's why some libertarians are for feodalism.

branchless 11y ago

I really dislike this line of thought. It reduces to: until living standards are as bad as Africa, don't complain. A recipe for getting living standards as bad as Africa.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Sounds like "Uncomfortable with privilege". I think that was the point of the comment - to make first world folks aware that their problems are first-world problems. In the big picture, maybe it doesn't matter exactly how comfortable 5% of the world is. Maybe the real issue is how bad things are in Africa. If people really all matter?
- branchless 11y ago
  No this is a false choice. We can fight for equality at home and for better living standards abroad. The boomers are behaving disgustingly by ramping land prices in hock with the banks. It has sent living standards into free-fall for the young.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    I guess its the free market that 'disgusting'? Confused. Economic systems work a certain way. Demonizing a group that participates like everybody else is a curious notion. And probably not a route to a solution. I always find it a curious approach, taken by so many activists, to start by disaffecting the group that they claim is in power. How can it help to piss of and blame the actual people than are in a position to help?
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Housing is a free market? The mortgage interest deduction alone is the third largest tax break overall, costing $100 billion per year. Similarly, zoning regulations are rampant, preventing new housing from being built and therefore keeping house values higher for existing homeowners. Calling the US housing market "free" is a sad joke.
      - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        Huh. They're building a lot of housing around here, like a carpet spreading over the land. Nobody who wants a house has to go without. Maybe we're talking apples and oranges. City centers and highly urbanized areas will work very differently. But is it a civil right to have cheap housing downtown?
        branchless 11y ago
        We have a system that ensures all our surplus labour after essentials will be taken up by rent. The banks provide credit as required. It costs nothing to make. As productivity increases (or as we work longer) more credit is created to absorb the surplus via interest.
    - branchless 11y ago
      It's not a free market - you are confused.
  - vmorgulis 11y ago
    > The boomers are behaving disgustingly by ramping land prices in hock with the banks. It has sent living standards into free-fall for the young. It's not them. You would do the same if you had properties and kids. Realestate is a market. It's inside the money. Some regimes tried to change that by force but it doesn't work. Even if you kill all the richs, they are replaced by another group (lawyers or bureaucrats): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution I think it's not a fatality. It's just a lack of knowledge. We don't know enough of human group behaviour.
    - branchless 11y ago
      No I wouldn't because I'm not a scumbag. I understand the system, I have funds to participate yet I do not. I will also vote for a brighter tomorrow by trying to support land value tax. Boomers want "me me me" in the main.
      - vmorgulis 11y ago
        It's not a problem of Will. If you think that, you might become a victim of "bad" people. Most people are not bad and do what they can. Even the wealthy do their best. Most of them have a family or friends to take care. Vote is useless. Big changes happens even during economic crisis or after wars.
- armitron 11y ago
  The real issues to those living in the first-world, are and should be those which affect their everyday lives and the societies that will determine their future. I'm sorry to say that Africa doesn't really factor into all that. Peace, love and understanding for the entire planet sounds great but I have work to do and bills to pay. These sort of "reduce everything into rubble by equalizing" arguments provide nothing to the discussion but wishful thinking and meaningless utopianism.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    So many agree with that. See the movie 'Zardoz' for a dystopian future taken from that premise.
    - vmorgulis 11y ago
      I like a lot the Big Flying and Talking Head :-)
  - vmorgulis 11y ago
    > The real issues to those living in the first-world, are and should be those which affect their everyday lives and the societies that will determine their future. They can't change that. They had no writing. History of Africa begins with XIVth century. Our culture comes from the Greeks, Roman Empire and India. Even in the Middle Ages, the western technology was superior.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      > History of Africa begins with XIVth century. This is certainly one opinion, however on the other hand, we have actual reality.
- unprepare 11y ago
  fallacy of relative privation or to reframe your argument: Maybe it doesnt matter how mysoginistic the US is, maybe the real issue is how bad things are in the middle east. Does that sound like something you agree with? we should cease all effort to improve conditions for women in the US because all of that effort should instead be expended on improving conditions for women in the middle east? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_fallacies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_...
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    I would say, it is hypocritical to worry about one's own cell phone bill to the exclusion of being concerned about other's real privation. I just caution: don't take yourself too seriously.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    That's not the fallacy of relative privation. The F.R.P. addresses arguments that appeal to unrelated problems elsewhere in the world. It's a fallacy because it's illogical: it doesn't matter that kids are starving in Japan, because nothing you do with your raisin bran is going to change that. But it does not follow that local problems are more, or even equally, deserving of attention that foreign ones.
    - unprepare 11y ago
      Maybe you have a solidly different understanding of that fallacy, but that lines up 100% from where i'm sitting. I'll even reword it into the right semantic order: "The US may have some minor societal issues, but its not as bad as africa, therefore those issues can be dismissed" What exactly is logical about claiming every problem in the US is able to be dismissed on the basis that its worse elsewhere - especially given that we are in a discussion about internal US demographics? How exactly is africa related to the growing proportion of elderly voters in the united states and the effects that has on youth populations?
      - tptacek 11y ago
vmorgulis 11y ago
It was to say that we can't really solve the problems with politics. What we can expect from political movements is something already done or tried. It's about taxes or laws. People have the right to complain but they don't understand where the problems come from. They are often manipulate by parties to win the elections and nothing changes. Most of the defects we can see in westerns countries come from the way we are organized (with hierarchy, money and laws). African societies are more horizontal and people share more (the food for example). There is no homeless in most african cities (some in big ones).

Spooky23 11y ago

Awesome. All of our problems are solved. Thanks for letting us know!

vmorgulis 11y ago
"Verbal, dramatic, and situational irony are often used for emphasis in the assertion of a truth. The ironic form of simile, used in sarcasm, and some forms of litotes can emphasize one's meaning by the deliberate use of language which states the opposite of the truth, denies the contrary of the truth, or drastically and obviously understates a factual connection." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

unprepare 11y ago

>Everybody has food USDA says that 14% of all households in the united states suffer from food insecurity.[1] >no real injustices in western countries institutional racism, police killings, homelessness, drug addiction, political oligarchy, rapidly rising secondary education costs, etc. These problems dont vanish because someone else has it worse, that's a well known fallacy called the fallacy of relative privation[2] [1] http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/key-statistics-graphics.aspx#householdtype http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/foo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_fallacies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_...

vmorgulis 11y ago
> institutional racism, police killings, homelessness, drug addiction, political oligarchy, rapidly rising secondary education costs, etc. There is no effective solution to any of these problems. Nothing works. They are consequences of the money. We use money because we do not understand each other. Money is far more than a commodity. It has its own live and rules. What is possible is to do small tunings with taxes and laws. That's all. If you take big revolutionnary measures, you will destabilize the money system and everything will be broken like in 1929. Another approach is real anarchist communism but it doesn't scale. It works only locally. That's why some libertarians are for feodalism.