7 ms·

Hololens really does sound like an absolutely extraordinary and revolutionary product. I'm genuinely excited to try it. ...And then I see mention of Skype, whi

by nkoren 11y ago

Hololens really does sound like an absolutely extraordinary and revolutionary product. I'm genuinely excited to try it. ...And then I see mention of Skype, which is a product that -- since its acquisition by Microsoft -- has gone steadily downhill in terms of its form, functionality, stability, security, and essentially every other metric. It's hard to find anybody who doesn't loathe it. There's some serious cognitive dissonance in trying to contemplate Hololens and Skype simultaneously. Actually, I had the same reaction when Hololens was first announced. "OMG, the future is here! Thank you Microsoft!" I thought, and then immediately spent the next 6 hours tracking down an idiotic standards-compliance bug which existed in every version of Internet Explorer up until IE 11.[1] I could go on at some length, but suffice to say that I am routinely astonished by Microsoft's R&D capabilities, yet virtually every interaction I have with their actual software leaves me with a dire impression. (Except for Excel, which for some reason Just Works for me). So as much as I want to have high hopes for Hololens, I fear that crappy software will let it down. Please, Microsoft -- prove me wrong! 1: window.location.origin, if you really want to know.

manojlds 11y ago
Xbox and Kinect?
- monk_e_boy 11y ago
  Kinect is really neat. It's hard to make it into a fun gaming device. I'm sure some people enjoy using it, but even for my 4 year old, he prefers a controller.
  - soylentcola 11y ago
    Kinect and similar depth cams really are neat but I think their potential won't be realized for a little while and selling an early one as a game controller belies that potential. With VR, I think work on depth cams and software to "stitch" together data streams from multiple devices will become very important. It's one of the only ways you can currently record and transmit (admittedly low-quality in current iterations) actual 3d video that can be viewed from any angle. When you look at early low quality webcams compared to digital video today, then apply that to something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgbycqb92c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgbycqb92c you can see how it opens up the possibility of real VR movies (not just pano) and even VR telepresence.
taf2 11y ago
80/20 rule maybe... It's easy to have great ideas and even deliver on most of the idea ... But to actually make it great that final 20 percent is really hard and easy to mess up during the ebb and flow of product development...
monk_e_boy 11y ago
Wait for version 2.
radiorental 11y ago
Skype is terrible, I have to use it to connect with family in Europe & Australia and it's getting to the point where I'm contemplating teaching my 70 yr old mother how ti use google hangouts (shudders) However, Skype for Business (formally known as Lync) is rock solid. I would postulate that since the rebranding of Lync, the old consumer-Skype is on an end-of-life roadmap. Hololens + LyncSkype in an enterprise & smb setting makes a lot of sense.
- tallanvor 11y ago
  I have the exact opposite opinion. Skype still works quite well (although sometimes it's not great about syncing chats across devices, but it's better than Facebook), while Skype for Business has constant issues and makes me miss Lync.
- trm42 11y ago
  Urk, I take it you haven't used Lync outside of Windows? The Mac version is horrible mixture of Silverlight+HTML5+Standalone App in which none of the mentioned pieces can't handle the full functionality. On the other hand Skype and Hipchat just works (unless you get hit by the Skype bugs:p).
- delecti 11y ago
  I feel the exact opposite on both counts. I've never really had a problem with Skype for desktop (though I agree that Hangouts is better), but the week after I updated my work machine to Lync was full of lag, dropped connections, and a suddenly bloated interface.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    This is bizarre because your experience is the exact opposite of mine (and the grandparent) - for me, Skype for Business is damn near perfect in every way, Skype desktop I hate with a fiery passion. Microsoft is a strange company.
- ohitsdom 11y ago
  Skype for business is the biggest dumpster fire of software that I've had to use for work in the last few years. Truly awful- resource hog, screen sharing rarely works, and frequently crashes.
hacker_9 11y ago
I love that MS tries to push the boundaries with new tech and ideas, but I absolutely loathe them because of their fake marketing of the products they actually do end up creating. Let me take this moment to remind everyone of the Kinect teaser [1]. Now watch the Hololens teaser again [2]. They couldn't deliver the Kinect as advertised 6 years ago, and the fact is they won't be able to deliver the Hololens either as advertised. $3000 is a lot of money to put on a lie. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qlHoxPioM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qlHoxPioM [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aThCr0PsyuA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aThCr0PsyuA
- embik 11y ago
  It's fascinating to compare the comment sections under both videos. The first one is full of loathing and mockery for Microsoft and the features they simply did not deliver, the second one boils down to "this is the future, Microsoft is building the future". I wonder how the Hololens comments will look a few years from today.
  - hacker_9 11y ago
    My favourite: The games: - Fake Fighter 2 Turbo - Project Fake Racing - FakeZilla - Fifa Fakeball 2009 - Tony Hawk's Fake Skater 9
- fsloth 11y ago
  "$3000 is a lot of money to put on a lie." Nonsense, $3000 is peanuts compared to the costs to actually write anything for it. I.e. if you are expecting to be entertained by the device and not augment your creative or professional output by it you are probably not in the core market. I have no idea how it will turn out but it's not a VR helmet as such, it's a wearable HUD with AR capabilities.
  - hacker_9 11y ago
    Oh I know exactly what it is, and I am a developer with the money who could buy it. But why would I when I know it will be nothing like what they said it is? I think I'll wait and watch the inevitable backlash before I spend my money.
bryanrasmussen 11y ago
I am routinely astonished by Apple's R&D capabilities, yet many interactions I have with their actual software leaves me with a dire impression. The lesson is: familiarity breeds contempt.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  Which brings me to my favorite quote: "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." - Bjarne Stroustrup You can expand that quote from [programming languages] to everything and it remains equally true. There's very few things everyone uses that they don't spend at least some time complaining about.
BuildTheRobots 11y ago
Not going to comment on my interactions with Microsoft, but the Excel team did a really interesting AMA on reddit a little while ago [1]. There's also quite a nice round table video with some of the original authors 30 years on. [2] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3rid26/we_are_the_microsoft_excel_team_ask_us_anything/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3rid26/we_are_the_mic... [2] http://www.geekwire.com/2015/recalc-or-die-30-years-later-microsoft-excel-1-0-vets-recount-a-project-that-defied-the-odds/ http://www.geekwire.com/2015/recalc-or-die-30-years-later-mi...
cptskippy 11y ago
In all fairness, I really don't think Skype's UI has gotten any worse. It's always been rubbish to me.
existencebox 11y ago
Microsoft is a HUGE company. I don't say this dismissively, even those who know the numbers don't always understand how distinctly many orgs work. It is essentially a bunch of independent companies that HAPPEN to be working on top of each other, with some common tech and staffing. I'll admit I'm hesitant to speak more bluntly, but I'm sure you can inferr what I'm trying to imply from the above; namely, it'll to be seen once holo comes out which org it was in, metaphorically :). If you were looking for a comparison, destiny probably has more predictive ability in terms of dev patterns, since the studios I believe (may be talking out of my ass) had a hand in making both. I'm also very excited about holo, a bit sad though that they didn't really make dev kits available internally to anyone who wasn't on the direct team; or even with a meaningful enough discount to make it viable to me as a hobby project.
- PretzelPirate 11y ago
  They did make the dev kits available internally, you just had to submit your idea and get selected to receive a dev kit.
pjc50 11y ago
Microsoft Research is a great institution. It's the XEROX PARC of our time, largely failing to commercialise its work. Although this time it tends to be locked up in patents so it's not commercialised by anyone else.
on_and_off 11y ago
>and revolutionary product I fear that the limited field of vision will severely cripple the experience.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
itaysk 11y ago
The problem was that it wasn't R&D. Research was separated from Development. This is something Satya publicly stated he wanted to change, and I hope he will.
frik 11y ago
It's called augmented reality, and HoloLens is just one of them, GoogleLens is another. I played with several research prototypes some years ago. All devices had a too small POV (point of view) and/or bad graphics. HoloLens suffer from a very small POV, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11195008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11195008

by nkoren 11y ago

manojlds 11y ago

Xbox and Kinect?

monk_e_boy 11y ago
Kinect is really neat. It's hard to make it into a fun gaming device. I'm sure some people enjoy using it, but even for my 4 year old, he prefers a controller.
- soylentcola 11y ago
  Kinect and similar depth cams really are neat but I think their potential won't be realized for a little while and selling an early one as a game controller belies that potential. With VR, I think work on depth cams and software to "stitch" together data streams from multiple devices will become very important. It's one of the only ways you can currently record and transmit (admittedly low-quality in current iterations) actual 3d video that can be viewed from any angle. When you look at early low quality webcams compared to digital video today, then apply that to something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgbycqb92c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgbycqb92c you can see how it opens up the possibility of real VR movies (not just pano) and even VR telepresence.

taf2 11y ago

80/20 rule maybe... It's easy to have great ideas and even deliver on most of the idea ... But to actually make it great that final 20 percent is really hard and easy to mess up during the ebb and flow of product development...

monk_e_boy 11y ago

Wait for version 2.

radiorental 11y ago

Skype is terrible, I have to use it to connect with family in Europe & Australia and it's getting to the point where I'm contemplating teaching my 70 yr old mother how ti use google hangouts (shudders) However, Skype for Business (formally known as Lync) is rock solid. I would postulate that since the rebranding of Lync, the old consumer-Skype is on an end-of-life roadmap. Hololens + LyncSkype in an enterprise & smb setting makes a lot of sense.

tallanvor 11y ago
I have the exact opposite opinion. Skype still works quite well (although sometimes it's not great about syncing chats across devices, but it's better than Facebook), while Skype for Business has constant issues and makes me miss Lync.
trm42 11y ago
Urk, I take it you haven't used Lync outside of Windows? The Mac version is horrible mixture of Silverlight+HTML5+Standalone App in which none of the mentioned pieces can't handle the full functionality. On the other hand Skype and Hipchat just works (unless you get hit by the Skype bugs:p).
delecti 11y ago
I feel the exact opposite on both counts. I've never really had a problem with Skype for desktop (though I agree that Hangouts is better), but the week after I updated my work machine to Lync was full of lag, dropped connections, and a suddenly bloated interface.
- mistermann 11y ago
  This is bizarre because your experience is the exact opposite of mine (and the grandparent) - for me, Skype for Business is damn near perfect in every way, Skype desktop I hate with a fiery passion. Microsoft is a strange company.
ohitsdom 11y ago
Skype for business is the biggest dumpster fire of software that I've had to use for work in the last few years. Truly awful- resource hog, screen sharing rarely works, and frequently crashes.

hacker_9 11y ago

I love that MS tries to push the boundaries with new tech and ideas, but I absolutely loathe them because of their fake marketing of the products they actually do end up creating. Let me take this moment to remind everyone of the Kinect teaser [1]. Now watch the Hololens teaser again [2]. They couldn't deliver the Kinect as advertised 6 years ago, and the fact is they won't be able to deliver the Hololens either as advertised. $3000 is a lot of money to put on a lie. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qlHoxPioM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qlHoxPioM [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aThCr0PsyuA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aThCr0PsyuA

embik 11y ago
It's fascinating to compare the comment sections under both videos. The first one is full of loathing and mockery for Microsoft and the features they simply did not deliver, the second one boils down to "this is the future, Microsoft is building the future". I wonder how the Hololens comments will look a few years from today.
- hacker_9 11y ago
  My favourite: The games: - Fake Fighter 2 Turbo - Project Fake Racing - FakeZilla - Fifa Fakeball 2009 - Tony Hawk's Fake Skater 9
fsloth 11y ago
"$3000 is a lot of money to put on a lie." Nonsense, $3000 is peanuts compared to the costs to actually write anything for it. I.e. if you are expecting to be entertained by the device and not augment your creative or professional output by it you are probably not in the core market. I have no idea how it will turn out but it's not a VR helmet as such, it's a wearable HUD with AR capabilities.
- hacker_9 11y ago
  Oh I know exactly what it is, and I am a developer with the money who could buy it. But why would I when I know it will be nothing like what they said it is? I think I'll wait and watch the inevitable backlash before I spend my money.

bryanrasmussen 11y ago

I am routinely astonished by Apple's R&D capabilities, yet many interactions I have with their actual software leaves me with a dire impression. The lesson is: familiarity breeds contempt.

Someone1234 11y ago
Which brings me to my favorite quote: "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." - Bjarne Stroustrup You can expand that quote from [programming languages] to everything and it remains equally true. There's very few things everyone uses that they don't spend at least some time complaining about.

BuildTheRobots 11y ago

Not going to comment on my interactions with Microsoft, but the Excel team did a really interesting AMA on reddit a little while ago [1]. There's also quite a nice round table video with some of the original authors 30 years on. [2] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3rid26/we_are_the_microsoft_excel_team_ask_us_anything/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3rid26/we_are_the_mic... [2] http://www.geekwire.com/2015/recalc-or-die-30-years-later-microsoft-excel-1-0-vets-recount-a-project-that-defied-the-odds/ http://www.geekwire.com/2015/recalc-or-die-30-years-later-mi...

cptskippy 11y ago

In all fairness, I really don't think Skype's UI has gotten any worse. It's always been rubbish to me.

existencebox 11y ago

Microsoft is a HUGE company. I don't say this dismissively, even those who know the numbers don't always understand how distinctly many orgs work. It is essentially a bunch of independent companies that HAPPEN to be working on top of each other, with some common tech and staffing. I'll admit I'm hesitant to speak more bluntly, but I'm sure you can inferr what I'm trying to imply from the above; namely, it'll to be seen once holo comes out which org it was in, metaphorically :). If you were looking for a comparison, destiny probably has more predictive ability in terms of dev patterns, since the studios I believe (may be talking out of my ass) had a hand in making both. I'm also very excited about holo, a bit sad though that they didn't really make dev kits available internally to anyone who wasn't on the direct team; or even with a meaningful enough discount to make it viable to me as a hobby project.

PretzelPirate 11y ago
They did make the dev kits available internally, you just had to submit your idea and get selected to receive a dev kit.

pjc50 11y ago

Microsoft Research is a great institution. It's the XEROX PARC of our time, largely failing to commercialise its work. Although this time it tends to be locked up in patents so it's not commercialised by anyone else.

on_and_off 11y ago

>and revolutionary product I fear that the limited field of vision will severely cripple the experience.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

itaysk 11y ago

The problem was that it wasn't R&D. Research was separated from Development. This is something Satya publicly stated he wanted to change, and I hope he will.

frik 11y ago

It's called augmented reality, and HoloLens is just one of them, GoogleLens is another. I played with several research prototypes some years ago. All devices had a too small POV (point of view) and/or bad graphics. HoloLens suffer from a very small POV, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11195008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11195008