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When it comes to actual attacks, there are more engineers. When it comes to merely joining the ideology itself, however, there are few engineers. 'We realise

by iofj 11y ago

When it comes to actual attacks, there are more engineers. When it comes to merely joining the ideology itself, however, there are few engineers. 'We realised immediately that this was an invasion, but we couldn't fully process the thoughts. My mother sat there shaking her head from side to side and said: 'Nothing bad will happen.' We were not Shi'ites who they hated. We were just Yazidis who they wanted to have control over. 'We quickly put long dresses over our night dresses. We then ran out onto the street to see the fighters who were approaching. They waved their black flags with white Arabic writing on them in the air. 'The first faces we saw from the passing vehicles were known to us. Regardless what jobs they did before, whether they were craftsmen, teachers or doctors, all of our Arab neighbours seemed to have joined up with ISIS. Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3462146/Raped-beaten-daily-Forced-abort-child-Left-bathe-blood-multiple-husbands-abused-Yazidi-details-nine-months-hell-ISIS-sex-slave.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3462146/Raped-beaten... This echoes stories from what happened in ex-Yugoslavia, Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and even older stories from Israel's independence war. The same story keeps repeating : a lot of people who lived in areas with lots of muslims suddenly found that nearly all of them hold extremist ideologies. Enough to kill and rape at least. And the thing is, we don't even know most of the time that this happens. What I think is that most people can't be bothered to actually do anything. If the effort they'll put into their life doesn't include getting an education and the sacrifices an education demands, it likely doesn't include fighting and the sacrifices that demands.

BWStearns 11y ago
That's why I specified the difference with expeditionary vs insurgency/local civil war-ish kinds of attacks. Examining ISIS as an insurgency or a civil war (as you hit on with the Yugoslavia comparison especially) has a lot more explanatory power than as a terrorist group. In this sense I mean terrorist group not as a moral distinction, but as a structural and methodological one. Terrorist group in the sense I mean doesn't really hold territory like ISIS does; they hit civilian targets in order to sway those citizens' governments, not to intimidate them into accepting their own governance; they are not governments. Once you control lots of territory where people live you'll get all sorts of people joining. The reasons people join transnational terrorist groups are very different than the reasons people join murderous super-rapey governments in the middle of a civil war. Even if it feels emotionally correct to call ISIS terrorists it's not the best way to analyze them and I think it's part of the reason that our policies and doctrines regarding terrorism, nation-building, foreign intervention are so schizophrenic.
digi_owl 11y ago
> This echoes stories from what happened in ex-Yugoslavia, Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and even older stories from Israel's independence war. The same story keeps repeating : a lot of people who lived in areas with lots of muslims suddenly found that nearly all of them hold extremist ideologies. Enough to kill and rape at least. And the thing is, we don't even know most of the time that this happens. Not sure if it is good for my ulcer, but here goes. I think its a bit of a jump to go from those examples to "lots of muslims". In all instances i see situations where you have lines drawn as much, or more, based on ethnicity than religion. That the two often blend over in various places, because certain lineages has held to certain beliefs over generations, is a confounding variable, not a causation. Never mind that i wonder how many plays along to save their own bacon. Humans will be humans when push comes to shove. Lets not forget that Europe had its 30 year war over a disagreement on Christian doctrine.
freddie_mercury 11y ago
"When it comes to merely joining the ideology itself, however, there are few engineers." This is the opposite of what the books claims based on the evidence they have accumulated.

by iofj 11y ago

BWStearns 11y ago

That's why I specified the difference with expeditionary vs insurgency/local civil war-ish kinds of attacks. Examining ISIS as an insurgency or a civil war (as you hit on with the Yugoslavia comparison especially) has a lot more explanatory power than as a terrorist group. In this sense I mean terrorist group not as a moral distinction, but as a structural and methodological one. Terrorist group in the sense I mean doesn't really hold territory like ISIS does; they hit civilian targets in order to sway those citizens' governments, not to intimidate them into accepting their own governance; they are not governments. Once you control lots of territory where people live you'll get all sorts of people joining. The reasons people join transnational terrorist groups are very different than the reasons people join murderous super-rapey governments in the middle of a civil war. Even if it feels emotionally correct to call ISIS terrorists it's not the best way to analyze them and I think it's part of the reason that our policies and doctrines regarding terrorism, nation-building, foreign intervention are so schizophrenic.

digi_owl 11y ago

> This echoes stories from what happened in ex-Yugoslavia, Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and even older stories from Israel's independence war. The same story keeps repeating : a lot of people who lived in areas with lots of muslims suddenly found that nearly all of them hold extremist ideologies. Enough to kill and rape at least. And the thing is, we don't even know most of the time that this happens. Not sure if it is good for my ulcer, but here goes. I think its a bit of a jump to go from those examples to "lots of muslims". In all instances i see situations where you have lines drawn as much, or more, based on ethnicity than religion. That the two often blend over in various places, because certain lineages has held to certain beliefs over generations, is a confounding variable, not a causation. Never mind that i wonder how many plays along to save their own bacon. Humans will be humans when push comes to shove. Lets not forget that Europe had its 30 year war over a disagreement on Christian doctrine.

freddie_mercury 11y ago

"When it comes to merely joining the ideology itself, however, there are few engineers." This is the opposite of what the books claims based on the evidence they have accumulated.