12 ms·

I have the (unfortunate, given reality) mindset of believing borders are an outmoded fiction, so protectionist arguments never seem very convincing to me. No on

I have the (unfortunate, given reality) mindset of believing borders are an outmoded fiction, so protectionist arguments never seem very convincing to me. No one has yet made a believable case for Americans being more deserving of employment than any given nationality, and I believe the global federation of skills that happens as a result of various immigration programs is the greater good for the species.

falsestprophet 11y ago
Do Americans "deserve" to write laws for their benefit? Do you "deserve" whatever wealth you have when it could be liquidated and save one live for every $3,500 [1]? It's easy to be generous with other people's resources. Being as virtuous as you imagine you are is expensive. [1] https://www.againstmalaria.com/ https://www.againstmalaria.com/
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
jimmydddd 11y ago
Re: "global federation of skills is greater good for the species." Yes, but IMHO, a smooth transition over time would probably work best. Not an abrupt disruptive change where whole departments of guys lose their job over night.
eximius 11y ago
We may not be more deserving of jobs, but totally ridding ourselves of borders would have us inundated with people that hope to achieve the "American dream". Most will not succeed given current conditions and we'd just have more poor people. :/
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  You can't possibly extrapolate the reality of a borderless world from current conditions, it would be a sea change in civilization.
lsc 11y ago
At the high end, for skilled workers, there's a lot of people arguing what you argue, even the skilled workers who would face increased competition for jobs. And I admit, I find the argument compelling myself. The interesting bit is that there are few who make this argument at the low end. The idea of open borders for unskilled folks is way less popular. The net effect of this, it seems to me, is that while there's lots of support for me facing more competition, there's no support for more competition in the labor I buy. Now, one could say that is reasonable, just because I make a lot more money than I need to live, which can't be said for less skilled workers, but it's an interesting dynamic.
greeneggs 11y ago
The potential gains, especially from freer immigration, are astounding. "The gains from eliminating migration barriers dwarf---by an order of a magnitude or two---the gains from eliminating other types of barriers. For the elimination of trade policy barriers and capital flow barriers, the estimated gains amount to less than a few percent of world GDP. For labor mobility barriers, the estimated gains are often in the range of 50–150 percent of world GDP." [1] A typical example: "Take a male construction worker in the capital of Ghana. There isn’t much you could do to greatly raise his economic productivity in Ghana; access to better tools or training might make him modestly more productive. But if you let the exact same person emigrate to work at a construction site in any big U.S. city, his economic productivity would rise roughly 700% to 1,000%." [2] [1] Clemens, Michael A. 2011. "Economics and Emigration: Trillion-Dollar Bills on the Sidewalk?" Journal of Economic Perspectives, 25(3): 83-106. https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/jep.25.3.83 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/jep.25.3.83 [2] http://www.cgdev.org/blog/trillion-dollar-bills-sidewalk-why-don%E2%80%99t-more-economists-study-emigration http://www.cgdev.org/blog/trillion-dollar-bills-sidewalk-why...
- soared 11y ago
  I really like this idea in theory. But in practice, even the given example is kind of broken. Would a random Ghana man be able to survive in the US? How much training and teaching would it take for them to actually be successful? Our culture and daily life are really not that similar. Undoubtedly there would still be a lot of economic gain for him, but the sheer logistics of it don't seem possible to overcome.
  - retroam 11y ago
    They are actually more similar than you would imagine. The national language is English and there is a decent size community in the bigger American cities that make it easier for a Ghanaian immigrant to assimilate.

falsestprophet 11y ago

Do Americans "deserve" to write laws for their benefit? Do you "deserve" whatever wealth you have when it could be liquidated and save one live for every $3,500 [1]? It's easy to be generous with other people's resources. Being as virtuous as you imagine you are is expensive. [1] https://www.againstmalaria.com/ https://www.againstmalaria.com/

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

jimmydddd 11y ago

Re: "global federation of skills is greater good for the species." Yes, but IMHO, a smooth transition over time would probably work best. Not an abrupt disruptive change where whole departments of guys lose their job over night.

eximius 11y ago

We may not be more deserving of jobs, but totally ridding ourselves of borders would have us inundated with people that hope to achieve the "American dream". Most will not succeed given current conditions and we'd just have more poor people. :/

oldmanjay 11y ago
You can't possibly extrapolate the reality of a borderless world from current conditions, it would be a sea change in civilization.

lsc 11y ago

At the high end, for skilled workers, there's a lot of people arguing what you argue, even the skilled workers who would face increased competition for jobs. And I admit, I find the argument compelling myself. The interesting bit is that there are few who make this argument at the low end. The idea of open borders for unskilled folks is way less popular. The net effect of this, it seems to me, is that while there's lots of support for me facing more competition, there's no support for more competition in the labor I buy. Now, one could say that is reasonable, just because I make a lot more money than I need to live, which can't be said for less skilled workers, but it's an interesting dynamic.

greeneggs 11y ago

The potential gains, especially from freer immigration, are astounding. "The gains from eliminating migration barriers dwarf---by an order of a magnitude or two---the gains from eliminating other types of barriers. For the elimination of trade policy barriers and capital flow barriers, the estimated gains amount to less than a few percent of world GDP. For labor mobility barriers, the estimated gains are often in the range of 50–150 percent of world GDP." [1] A typical example: "Take a male construction worker in the capital of Ghana. There isn’t much you could do to greatly raise his economic productivity in Ghana; access to better tools or training might make him modestly more productive. But if you let the exact same person emigrate to work at a construction site in any big U.S. city, his economic productivity would rise roughly 700% to 1,000%." [2] [1] Clemens, Michael A. 2011. "Economics and Emigration: Trillion-Dollar Bills on the Sidewalk?" Journal of Economic Perspectives, 25(3): 83-106. https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/jep.25.3.83 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/jep.25.3.83 [2] http://www.cgdev.org/blog/trillion-dollar-bills-sidewalk-why-don%E2%80%99t-more-economists-study-emigration http://www.cgdev.org/blog/trillion-dollar-bills-sidewalk-why...

soared 11y ago
I really like this idea in theory. But in practice, even the given example is kind of broken. Would a random Ghana man be able to survive in the US? How much training and teaching would it take for them to actually be successful? Our culture and daily life are really not that similar. Undoubtedly there would still be a lot of economic gain for him, but the sheer logistics of it don't seem possible to overcome.
- retroam 11y ago
  They are actually more similar than you would imagine. The national language is English and there is a decent size community in the bigger American cities that make it easier for a Ghanaian immigrant to assimilate.