10 ms·

The skills shortage issue, in my experience is the inability to find someone with the specific skills and talents for a given job. It is real, as anyone who's t

by shas3 11y ago

The skills shortage issue, in my experience is the inability to find someone with the specific skills and talents for a given job. It is real, as anyone who's tried to hire in certain areas can testify. It is not a strict commodity market where terms like shortage are easy to define. The purpose of the H1B visa is to make it easy for US companies to look for talent wherever in the world it is available without having to open up offices there. It fails to do this in an equitable manner. One can arrive at this conclusion without invoking STEM shortage and implying that foreign workers are somehow deficient. Frankly the only place where H1B seems to be "misused" is in the outsourcing industry. And that too it is "misused" if you look it from a protectionist perspective. I've never seen any high skilled jobs going to H1Bs just because it is cheaper. In fact I've seen the opposite: small and mid-size companies hesitating to hire H1Bs because of the uncertainties involved. Also, PhD glut in bio has nothing to do with H1B! The author misleadingly brings it up because it has the "woah" factor to buttress his argument. Also can somehow explain to me how it is not protectionism to forge Disney to do something in house while it can be done cheaper by engaging a foreign company like Infosys?

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
> I've never seen any high skilled jobs going to H1Bs just because it is cheaper. Are you familiar with the Walt Disney Company.
- shas3 11y ago
  I'm using the definition of "high-skilled" used by the article, which clearly claims Disney used H1B for routine jobs.
codeonfire 11y ago
>look for talent wherever in the world it is available without having to open up offices there It's not. Most large companies already have offices over there and could hire those people tomorrow if they wanted to. They bring people into the US with their families to have power over them. A manager without power over skilled people is useless in accomplishing business goals that require those skills. They also are always trying to accomplish personal goals like getting their friends promoted, getting more power generally at the cost of technical people. These types of goals tend to make technical people walk away despite any salary level, hence the need for H1B. Except for body shops, H1B is about power not money or available workforce.
- shas3 11y ago
  Frankly your vision is limited to the outsourcing industry. Would it surprise you to learn that many many big companies (GE, Msft, GOOG, FB, pharmas, etc.) that form a large percentage of the US economy also hire people with specific skills (say, 3D computer vision or expertise in pharma processes) who by being educated in the US universities are some of the best in the world? No manager in these companies is thinking about the leverage you're talking about when the person's skill can be a do or die for entire product lines.
  - codeonfire 11y ago
    I'm speaking from first hand conversations with H1B's who go on about how their company is holding this or that over their head such as green card sponsorship. You are completely ignored my point that those employers can hire those people in their countries as those employers that you named have offices in every major city around the world. They have big offices with thousands of employees. Your statement about companies wanting to hire specialized skills is pointless. Everybody agrees with that. Your statement about managers not wanting leverage is just not true. What else do you think it means to want to hire to someone other than to have leverage over a person. I made the point that employers want undue leverage when money is not enough and that is why they use H1B.
  - throwaway_236 11y ago
    The parent's description matches exactly what I know from people on H1Bs in the fashion industry, whose labor market conditions have some parallels with tech. I don't think it's limited to outsourcing companies. Long hours, death march deadlines, and generally higher-than-average salaries result in high turnover in fashion as they do in tech. Employers turn to H1Bs to lock-in a workforce, as, excepting large companies, few will expend the extra time and money (legal services and filing fees) to transfer a visa when they can simply hire away an employee from a competitor. The lack of labor mobility with the H1B is a boon to industries that would rather not reform the working conditions or improve the salaries that causes top talent to move around.
waterlesscloud 11y ago
Which specific skills and talents are in shortage?
- bobosha 11y ago
  I'll start. 1. Deep learning, Neural networks, anything to do with AI. 2. Machine Vision, 3. Genomic Science (CRSPR etc. 4. Robotics/Mechatronics... and that's just a start.
  - alayne 11y ago
    And H1Bs are used primarily for hiring people in those fields?
    - shas3 11y ago
      In the current structure these are the kinds of jobs that are getting harder to fill with H1B shortages. I personally know several experts who couldn't get O1 (and some who did) and had to leave the country after losing out in the lottery.
      - alayne 11y ago
        I have H-1B coworkers that are not particularly highly skilled or in those fields.
        shas3 11y ago
        Ok
  - bsder 11y ago
    > 3. Genomic Science (CRSPR etc. Did you read the article? > The mismatch is especially stark in the biomedical field. There, according to a 2014 paper by experts from UC San Francisco, Harvard and Princeton, "the training pipeline produces more scientists than relevant positions in academia, government, and the private sector are capable of absorbing."
tosseraccount 11y ago
There is always a "mismatch" between wants and ability to pay. Tech business is not special. Purchasing labor services is subject to the same supply and demand problems as any other product. It's simply market fundamentals that affect all economic behavior. If you want a new Lexus, but can only afford a used Corolla, that does not mean there's a "Lexus shortage" ... nor is there a "car shortage". If only a Lexus will do, then the market just doesn't happen.
quetzthecoatl 11y ago
Another factor is location. My company acquired a startup in a tier two city in US, and have the toughest time in getting people there whenever they want to fill up a position. At the same time, there isn't much of that problem in other offices.
- mdorazio 11y ago
  Seems like a simple problem to solve - raise the wage offered in the tier two city. If the benefits of moving to a less desirable location for work outweigh the drawbacks, people will do it. Your company probably just doesn't want to pay people enough to move there.
gherkin0 11y ago
> The skills shortage issue, in my experience is the inability to find someone with the specific skills and talents for a given job. It is real, as anyone who's tried to hire in certain areas can testify. You know, you could always just hire someone with potential and put him through a training program to teach him the "specific skills" needed, or just let him learn them on-the-job. But of course, employers are no longer willing to invest in their employees* , so we have a "skills shortage." * They used to. It's my understanding that the first few generations of business applications programmers were taught programming from scratch by their employers.
- floppydisk 11y ago
  This is my biggest gripe with the modern technology industry. We've gone from "you have the background and skills to do the work - here's how we do what we do" to "You don't check these thirty boxes specific to our company?! No job for you!" It's getting rather absurd, especially when you're job hunting and the recruiters give you the "you have an impressive background and could do this work, BUT you don't have <exact ten things> ergo we'll pass." Very few people take the route of finding talent then training them up. Companies willing to take the time to train their people and focus on finding raw talent they can mold will make a killing. Not only will the people be trained exactly how you want them, but I'd argue they'd be cheaper and you could tie compensation increases to hitting defined mile marks in the training program or demonstrating competencies. From the flip side, I see the company concern - kind of. If I bring in raw talent and train it, I've sunk $X into the talent and if they leave shortly thereafter, I'm out $X with no benefit. The counterpoint to that argument, I think are signing bonuses and defined time contracts. In exchange for us training you to do this job and completing the program, you get a signing bonus of $X at the start, $Y at the end, and sign a 2 year agreement to work here. If you leave beforehand you agree to payback the $X+Y signing bonus (unless laid off by the company). There are ways to address the "skills shortage". The problem is, no one wants to take the time and the cost to do it.

by shas3 11y ago

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

> I've never seen any high skilled jobs going to H1Bs just because it is cheaper. Are you familiar with the Walt Disney Company.

shas3 11y ago
I'm using the definition of "high-skilled" used by the article, which clearly claims Disney used H1B for routine jobs.

codeonfire 11y ago

>look for talent wherever in the world it is available without having to open up offices there It's not. Most large companies already have offices over there and could hire those people tomorrow if they wanted to. They bring people into the US with their families to have power over them. A manager without power over skilled people is useless in accomplishing business goals that require those skills. They also are always trying to accomplish personal goals like getting their friends promoted, getting more power generally at the cost of technical people. These types of goals tend to make technical people walk away despite any salary level, hence the need for H1B. Except for body shops, H1B is about power not money or available workforce.

shas3 11y ago
Frankly your vision is limited to the outsourcing industry. Would it surprise you to learn that many many big companies (GE, Msft, GOOG, FB, pharmas, etc.) that form a large percentage of the US economy also hire people with specific skills (say, 3D computer vision or expertise in pharma processes) who by being educated in the US universities are some of the best in the world? No manager in these companies is thinking about the leverage you're talking about when the person's skill can be a do or die for entire product lines.
- codeonfire 11y ago
  I'm speaking from first hand conversations with H1B's who go on about how their company is holding this or that over their head such as green card sponsorship. You are completely ignored my point that those employers can hire those people in their countries as those employers that you named have offices in every major city around the world. They have big offices with thousands of employees. Your statement about companies wanting to hire specialized skills is pointless. Everybody agrees with that. Your statement about managers not wanting leverage is just not true. What else do you think it means to want to hire to someone other than to have leverage over a person. I made the point that employers want undue leverage when money is not enough and that is why they use H1B.
- throwaway_236 11y ago
  The parent's description matches exactly what I know from people on H1Bs in the fashion industry, whose labor market conditions have some parallels with tech. I don't think it's limited to outsourcing companies. Long hours, death march deadlines, and generally higher-than-average salaries result in high turnover in fashion as they do in tech. Employers turn to H1Bs to lock-in a workforce, as, excepting large companies, few will expend the extra time and money (legal services and filing fees) to transfer a visa when they can simply hire away an employee from a competitor. The lack of labor mobility with the H1B is a boon to industries that would rather not reform the working conditions or improve the salaries that causes top talent to move around.

waterlesscloud 11y ago

Which specific skills and talents are in shortage?

bobosha 11y ago
I'll start. 1. Deep learning, Neural networks, anything to do with AI. 2. Machine Vision, 3. Genomic Science (CRSPR etc. 4. Robotics/Mechatronics... and that's just a start.
- alayne 11y ago
  And H1Bs are used primarily for hiring people in those fields?
  - shas3 11y ago
    In the current structure these are the kinds of jobs that are getting harder to fill with H1B shortages. I personally know several experts who couldn't get O1 (and some who did) and had to leave the country after losing out in the lottery.
    - alayne 11y ago
      I have H-1B coworkers that are not particularly highly skilled or in those fields.
      - shas3 11y ago
        Ok
- bsder 11y ago
  > 3. Genomic Science (CRSPR etc. Did you read the article? > The mismatch is especially stark in the biomedical field. There, according to a 2014 paper by experts from UC San Francisco, Harvard and Princeton, "the training pipeline produces more scientists than relevant positions in academia, government, and the private sector are capable of absorbing."

tosseraccount 11y ago

There is always a "mismatch" between wants and ability to pay. Tech business is not special. Purchasing labor services is subject to the same supply and demand problems as any other product. It's simply market fundamentals that affect all economic behavior. If you want a new Lexus, but can only afford a used Corolla, that does not mean there's a "Lexus shortage" ... nor is there a "car shortage". If only a Lexus will do, then the market just doesn't happen.

quetzthecoatl 11y ago

Another factor is location. My company acquired a startup in a tier two city in US, and have the toughest time in getting people there whenever they want to fill up a position. At the same time, there isn't much of that problem in other offices.

mdorazio 11y ago
Seems like a simple problem to solve - raise the wage offered in the tier two city. If the benefits of moving to a less desirable location for work outweigh the drawbacks, people will do it. Your company probably just doesn't want to pay people enough to move there.

gherkin0 11y ago

> The skills shortage issue, in my experience is the inability to find someone with the specific skills and talents for a given job. It is real, as anyone who's tried to hire in certain areas can testify. You know, you could always just hire someone with potential and put him through a training program to teach him the "specific skills" needed, or just let him learn them on-the-job. But of course, employers are no longer willing to invest in their employees* , so we have a "skills shortage." * They used to. It's my understanding that the first few generations of business applications programmers were taught programming from scratch by their employers.

floppydisk 11y ago
This is my biggest gripe with the modern technology industry. We've gone from "you have the background and skills to do the work - here's how we do what we do" to "You don't check these thirty boxes specific to our company?! No job for you!" It's getting rather absurd, especially when you're job hunting and the recruiters give you the "you have an impressive background and could do this work, BUT you don't have <exact ten things> ergo we'll pass." Very few people take the route of finding talent then training them up. Companies willing to take the time to train their people and focus on finding raw talent they can mold will make a killing. Not only will the people be trained exactly how you want them, but I'd argue they'd be cheaper and you could tie compensation increases to hitting defined mile marks in the training program or demonstrating competencies. From the flip side, I see the company concern - kind of. If I bring in raw talent and train it, I've sunk $X into the talent and if they leave shortly thereafter, I'm out $X with no benefit. The counterpoint to that argument, I think are signing bonuses and defined time contracts. In exchange for us training you to do this job and completing the program, you get a signing bonus of $X at the start, $Y at the end, and sign a 2 year agreement to work here. If you leave beforehand you agree to payback the $X+Y signing bonus (unless laid off by the company). There are ways to address the "skills shortage". The problem is, no one wants to take the time and the cost to do it.