8 ms·

Side note on the "mystic flavor" yoga (as oppose to plain "mindfullness meditation" and "yoga for back pains") and other "eastern" spirituality things: I think

by nnq 11y ago

Side note on the "mystic flavor" yoga (as oppose to plain "mindfullness meditation" and "yoga for back pains") and other "eastern" spirituality things: I think there's a reason why there are so many initiation ceremonies and tasks that one was/is traditionally put to do before going-off-the-deep-end, and why ancient hindus saw being a yogi as a path for one that was of a certain age and already had a family and proved itself capable of functioning in society - to weed out anyone with preexisting mental health conditions. You even see this pattern in the story of Buddha's life - he was a socially capable young prince born in a loving family and had no frustrations and most material needs fully satisfied. And also for the zen philosophy attitude of "but don't take these things too seriously" - to prevent people from actually "drowning" in these mystical visions and loosing any contact with reality. Overall I think that a lot of people would benefit from the occasional mystical perspective on life. It's awesome for creative problem solving! And most people have become a bit too secular and boring. But if they go on and apply the "work hard on it and take it seriously" pattern to spirituality they'll just go and OD on it. The "westernly refined eastern spirituality" seems as close to the original thing as purified cocaine is to chewed coca leaves: very different concentrations, very different use scenarios. How can it not go wrong for the more psychology sensitive individuals among us? People should go and read/listen some of Allan Watts' book/recordings. You can try starting with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8130_-3d3PA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8130_-3d3PA . He had some good ideas on how to use an occasional mystical perspective to enrich one's life, without taking it too seriously and completely loosing it. Mind it, I don't agree with most of his ideas, but they are still better than what others are selling.

dfraser992 11y ago
Upvote, and especially for the metaphor (cocaine versus coca) - it summarizes what I've seen in the New Age-ish subculture over the years. I've had experiences with kundalini - quite definitely. And some woo-woo ness I can't possibly explain unless one is already familiar with the terminology and understandings. Ken Wilbur is a useful read - it's not all garbage. But "I" was still "I" and understood what was going on and never forced it by heavy duty 100% immersion into the subculture (aka dating the crazy chick). No instances of mania, etc - always came down, after learning some inner stuff. The focus was always on the inner world and self-knowledge, not solving the problems of the universe. The universe can take care of itself. It's when you go into "inflation" and think "you" are the embodiment of God and all that is where everything goes sideways (aka no sleep for 10 days). To think all the concepts are -literally- true is a sign of a less sophisticated understanding or of schizophrenia, etc - like not understanding the myth of the dead and reborn god is a metaphor, not an actual historical event (people...! really?) but once that metaphor becomes properly understood, then the universe becomes a little more interesting. Someone with an undiagnosed bipolar disorder is pretty guaranteed problems eventually. I'm glad he's back to normal.
- Zelmor 11y ago
  >The universe can take care of itself. It's when you go into "inflation" and think "you" are the embodiment of God and all that is where everything goes sideways. This. I think people are too keen on trying to save the whales and save the world. The world is as such. Sure we can work on making it a better place, but to seek perfection is to be blind to the reality of it manifesting under your own feet. I've had a couple events of going out of my mind deliberately by ways of breathing exercises, extensive singing, yelling, laughing and such. I think that to stay sane, you sometimes have to visit the other side of the looking glass as well. It is much like using LSD, mushrooms, mescaline. Some people can get lost in such situations, and if you feel like such thing could happen, just find a trustworthy individual who has been through such experiences and can hold your hand as you go onto your journey. Andrew Feldmar MD and his books are something to look up if these things interest you. As far as madness and medication goes, it seems that US citizens are eager to medicate anyone who does not conform the perceived "norm". Even the individual herself gets under the impression that it is her and not the system that is at fault. Meanwhile, the psychological pressure and deformities of consumer society, impulse control and acts of aggression/murder are on the rise, whereas people should be more open to express the absurdities that surround us, and to feel free not to stay in line of a fairly broken and decaying status quo.
  - joepie91_ 11y ago
    From my experiences with youth mental hospitals in the Netherlands, they are dominated by the same "just medicate it away" line of reasoning. Therapy exists but is not taken very seriously, and the most important thing of all - listening to somebody's story - is ignored completely. It's very rare to find anybody in these mental hospitals who isn't on medication, even those who are there through no fault or issue of their own (eg. because of problems with their parents). The only reason I didn't end up taking medication there, was because I categorically refused it.
flatline 11y ago
> ancient hindus saw being a yogi as a path for one that was of a certain age and already had a family and proved itself capable of functioning in society This was the case with the Western mystery traditions since the Greeks, but I wasn't aware of it in the East. Buddhist monks are often accepted at a very early age. In Tibet in particular they learn advanced yogic practices, although the more rigorous training does not start until the teenage years. Foyan, an 11th Century Chinese Zen monk, comments that there is no point studying past the age of 30 because you are too old!
- mbrock 11y ago
  :) Foyan also said: "What do you people come to me for? Each individual should lead life autonomously—don’t listen to what other people say. An ancient declared, ‘I knew how to lead life by the time I was eighteen.’ You people must learn to live independently."
- nnq 11y ago
  I think the source of my infos for that particular affirmation is Alan Watts and a post from a Japanese buddhist monk. I really don't know about Tibetan monks, and A.W. is entertaining but far from trustworthy. So you should check this yourself if you want the truth. Maybe it really does apply only to western mystery traditions and some Japanese buddhists, and some pople over-generalized this, I don't know for sure.
  - flatline 11y ago
    TIL - I'd just never come across it before, and I've listened to a fair amount of Watts lectures over the years. Been a while since I read any books of his, I'll keep it in mind, he was very knowledgable about these kinds of things. The Japanese did make Buddhist practice much more a part of daily life.
yahyaheee 11y ago
Upvote as well. My personal mystical experiences have been very positive in my life. My friends and I call it "cleaning out the cobwebs" and do it a couple times a year. And yes this stuff is not good for people with mental illness, but let's not throw it away all together. Psychedelics have an incredible promise to heal, and have helped me substantially with my own trauma. However they should be used in chorus with a certified therapist. Beyond that I get a little agitated when people feel that none of it is of any substance and we already "know" reality. I think we are actually very far from understanding the nature of reality and these experiences may hold legitimate truths in them. Let's not be reductionists and keep an open mind
- kenneth_reitz 11y ago
  This was me, six months ago.
  - ggreer 11y ago
    But unlike the parent commenter, didn't you have hypomanic episodes before going down that path? I think most who do that sort of thing don't end up in a hospital. At worst, they end up following Deepak Chopra. Also, thank you for sharing your experience. It takes courage to talk about one's mental issues. And thank you for requests. It's crazy useful!
  - tomhoward 11y ago
    It was also me, 2-3 years ago. Then, your manic episode was me, 20 months ago (the having a "Kundalini awakening" and believing I was raising the vibrational frequency of the universe part - not the hospital admission or lithium prescription part, I managed to chill out without much need for professional intervention). Your point of view now was me, 18 months ago, believing all my problems had stemmed from purely materialist/biochemical causes, and rejecting all the spriritual stuff as dangerous woo. Since then, I've found a balance that seems, as objectively as one can be about one's self, to have me in a much better place. My quality of life, as reflected in my work/career, my friendships/relationships and my sense of contentment and happiness, is good and has been steadily improving for many months. I take no psychiatric or any other medication (I had been on benzo's then SSRI's years ago). I eat healthily (not obsessively), drink only moderately and socially, I sleep well, and I do regular conventional exercise with increasing ease. I also practice holotropic breathwork [1], occasional kundalini yoga, nutritional supplementation (mostly amino acids and minerals like calcium and magnesium), near infrared light therapy [2], kinesiology and self-muscle-testing [3]. I don't make any specific claims about the efficacy of any particular practice, but overall the system seems to be working. I don't believe I have any magical powers or access to secret wisdom about the true nature of the universe. I find merit and value in the philosophies of public figures across the spectrum of thought on these matters; Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Rupert Sheldrake, Bruce Lipton, Lissa Rankin, Bernardo Kastrup, Rudy Tanzi, Sir Roger Penrose, and the late Wayne Dyer. I don't believe any of these people are 100% right, but neither do I think any is 100% wrong, and each has been very valuable to me and many others in developing an optimal approach to life. And this is the most important point. It's unhealthy to adopt either materialism or spirituality with extreme conviction, just as it's unhealthy to reject either of them with extreme prejudice. Extreme anything is unhealthy. Balance, restraint, modesty and tolerance is healthy. I understand why you need to adopt a staunch anti-woo position right now given what you've been through. Just be careful not to be too contemptuous and dogmatic against philosophies and practices that others find beneficial in more healthy and balanced ways than has so far been possible for you. But thank you for sharing your journey and insights so candidly. More people need to be made to feel comfortable talking about this stuff, and it helps the world when you lead the way. [1] http://www.holotropic.com/about.shtml http://www.holotropic.com/about.shtml [2] http://nutritionalbalancing.org/center/htma/supportive/articles/sauna.php http://nutritionalbalancing.org/center/htma/supportive/artic... [3] http://www.livestrong.com/article/325815-techniques-for-self-muscle-testing/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/325815-techniques-for-self...

by nnq 11y ago

dfraser992 11y ago

Upvote, and especially for the metaphor (cocaine versus coca) - it summarizes what I've seen in the New Age-ish subculture over the years. I've had experiences with kundalini - quite definitely. And some woo-woo ness I can't possibly explain unless one is already familiar with the terminology and understandings. Ken Wilbur is a useful read - it's not all garbage. But "I" was still "I" and understood what was going on and never forced it by heavy duty 100% immersion into the subculture (aka dating the crazy chick). No instances of mania, etc - always came down, after learning some inner stuff. The focus was always on the inner world and self-knowledge, not solving the problems of the universe. The universe can take care of itself. It's when you go into "inflation" and think "you" are the embodiment of God and all that is where everything goes sideways (aka no sleep for 10 days). To think all the concepts are -literally- true is a sign of a less sophisticated understanding or of schizophrenia, etc - like not understanding the myth of the dead and reborn god is a metaphor, not an actual historical event (people...! really?) but once that metaphor becomes properly understood, then the universe becomes a little more interesting. Someone with an undiagnosed bipolar disorder is pretty guaranteed problems eventually. I'm glad he's back to normal.

Zelmor 11y ago
>The universe can take care of itself. It's when you go into "inflation" and think "you" are the embodiment of God and all that is where everything goes sideways. This. I think people are too keen on trying to save the whales and save the world. The world is as such. Sure we can work on making it a better place, but to seek perfection is to be blind to the reality of it manifesting under your own feet. I've had a couple events of going out of my mind deliberately by ways of breathing exercises, extensive singing, yelling, laughing and such. I think that to stay sane, you sometimes have to visit the other side of the looking glass as well. It is much like using LSD, mushrooms, mescaline. Some people can get lost in such situations, and if you feel like such thing could happen, just find a trustworthy individual who has been through such experiences and can hold your hand as you go onto your journey. Andrew Feldmar MD and his books are something to look up if these things interest you. As far as madness and medication goes, it seems that US citizens are eager to medicate anyone who does not conform the perceived "norm". Even the individual herself gets under the impression that it is her and not the system that is at fault. Meanwhile, the psychological pressure and deformities of consumer society, impulse control and acts of aggression/murder are on the rise, whereas people should be more open to express the absurdities that surround us, and to feel free not to stay in line of a fairly broken and decaying status quo.
- joepie91_ 11y ago
  From my experiences with youth mental hospitals in the Netherlands, they are dominated by the same "just medicate it away" line of reasoning. Therapy exists but is not taken very seriously, and the most important thing of all - listening to somebody's story - is ignored completely. It's very rare to find anybody in these mental hospitals who isn't on medication, even those who are there through no fault or issue of their own (eg. because of problems with their parents). The only reason I didn't end up taking medication there, was because I categorically refused it.

flatline 11y ago

> ancient hindus saw being a yogi as a path for one that was of a certain age and already had a family and proved itself capable of functioning in society This was the case with the Western mystery traditions since the Greeks, but I wasn't aware of it in the East. Buddhist monks are often accepted at a very early age. In Tibet in particular they learn advanced yogic practices, although the more rigorous training does not start until the teenage years. Foyan, an 11th Century Chinese Zen monk, comments that there is no point studying past the age of 30 because you are too old!

mbrock 11y ago
:) Foyan also said: "What do you people come to me for? Each individual should lead life autonomously—don’t listen to what other people say. An ancient declared, ‘I knew how to lead life by the time I was eighteen.’ You people must learn to live independently."
nnq 11y ago
I think the source of my infos for that particular affirmation is Alan Watts and a post from a Japanese buddhist monk. I really don't know about Tibetan monks, and A.W. is entertaining but far from trustworthy. So you should check this yourself if you want the truth. Maybe it really does apply only to western mystery traditions and some Japanese buddhists, and some pople over-generalized this, I don't know for sure.
- flatline 11y ago
  TIL - I'd just never come across it before, and I've listened to a fair amount of Watts lectures over the years. Been a while since I read any books of his, I'll keep it in mind, he was very knowledgable about these kinds of things. The Japanese did make Buddhist practice much more a part of daily life.

yahyaheee 11y ago

Upvote as well. My personal mystical experiences have been very positive in my life. My friends and I call it "cleaning out the cobwebs" and do it a couple times a year. And yes this stuff is not good for people with mental illness, but let's not throw it away all together. Psychedelics have an incredible promise to heal, and have helped me substantially with my own trauma. However they should be used in chorus with a certified therapist. Beyond that I get a little agitated when people feel that none of it is of any substance and we already "know" reality. I think we are actually very far from understanding the nature of reality and these experiences may hold legitimate truths in them. Let's not be reductionists and keep an open mind

kenneth_reitz 11y ago
This was me, six months ago.
- ggreer 11y ago
  But unlike the parent commenter, didn't you have hypomanic episodes before going down that path? I think most who do that sort of thing don't end up in a hospital. At worst, they end up following Deepak Chopra. Also, thank you for sharing your experience. It takes courage to talk about one's mental issues. And thank you for requests. It's crazy useful!
- tomhoward 11y ago
  It was also me, 2-3 years ago. Then, your manic episode was me, 20 months ago (the having a "Kundalini awakening" and believing I was raising the vibrational frequency of the universe part - not the hospital admission or lithium prescription part, I managed to chill out without much need for professional intervention). Your point of view now was me, 18 months ago, believing all my problems had stemmed from purely materialist/biochemical causes, and rejecting all the spriritual stuff as dangerous woo. Since then, I've found a balance that seems, as objectively as one can be about one's self, to have me in a much better place. My quality of life, as reflected in my work/career, my friendships/relationships and my sense of contentment and happiness, is good and has been steadily improving for many months. I take no psychiatric or any other medication (I had been on benzo's then SSRI's years ago). I eat healthily (not obsessively), drink only moderately and socially, I sleep well, and I do regular conventional exercise with increasing ease. I also practice holotropic breathwork [1], occasional kundalini yoga, nutritional supplementation (mostly amino acids and minerals like calcium and magnesium), near infrared light therapy [2], kinesiology and self-muscle-testing [3]. I don't make any specific claims about the efficacy of any particular practice, but overall the system seems to be working. I don't believe I have any magical powers or access to secret wisdom about the true nature of the universe. I find merit and value in the philosophies of public figures across the spectrum of thought on these matters; Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Rupert Sheldrake, Bruce Lipton, Lissa Rankin, Bernardo Kastrup, Rudy Tanzi, Sir Roger Penrose, and the late Wayne Dyer. I don't believe any of these people are 100% right, but neither do I think any is 100% wrong, and each has been very valuable to me and many others in developing an optimal approach to life. And this is the most important point. It's unhealthy to adopt either materialism or spirituality with extreme conviction, just as it's unhealthy to reject either of them with extreme prejudice. Extreme anything is unhealthy. Balance, restraint, modesty and tolerance is healthy. I understand why you need to adopt a staunch anti-woo position right now given what you've been through. Just be careful not to be too contemptuous and dogmatic against philosophies and practices that others find beneficial in more healthy and balanced ways than has so far been possible for you. But thank you for sharing your journey and insights so candidly. More people need to be made to feel comfortable talking about this stuff, and it helps the world when you lead the way. [1] http://www.holotropic.com/about.shtml http://www.holotropic.com/about.shtml [2] http://nutritionalbalancing.org/center/htma/supportive/articles/sauna.php http://nutritionalbalancing.org/center/htma/supportive/artic... [3] http://www.livestrong.com/article/325815-techniques-for-self-muscle-testing/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/325815-techniques-for-self...