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> although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an exception I'm a dane living in Copenhagen. I am atheist as well. I really do not get what you mean

by useerup 11y ago

> although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an exception I'm a dane living in Copenhagen. I am atheist as well. I really do not get what you mean by "conservative Jewish populations are an exception" to good cultural assimilation. I grew up unaware of the jewish population, I studied and later worked with several jews, unaware that they were in fact jewish, My wife had several jewish friends from college. Except for the fact that some of them chose to live "more" jewish than others - and generally take Fridays off - I have never ever noticed them to stand out in any way. In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish. They seem to have been assimilated to the point where it is actually a threat to the (little) cultural diversity that Denmark has. It is the same way in the other Scandinavian countries. Your comment is very, very strange. > I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) Turkey has not entered the EU. In fact, due to concerns about democracy and human rights, they have not even been promised that they can start negotiations. > Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture, and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small town I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must be. One very important mechanism to make the Danish society work, is trust. We are generous with welfare. We have paid education through college/university or equivalent. In fact, in addition to free tuition, we will pay you to take an education. Danish "SU" ("Education Support") amounts to DKK5941 /month - apx $10464/year. The backside of the trust is, that one of the least socially acceptable things you can do is to cheat the generous system. > At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria if it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on whatever criteria the country decides to It seems to me, that every country in the world - Denmark included - should accept their fair share of refugees. Smaller populations with different cultures are generally not a problem. Only when populations with very different culture and religious views grows faster than their culture as well as the host country culture can adapt to eachother do problems arise.

schoen 11y ago
> In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish. I'm sure those aren't the people the parent commenter was referring to. Jews throughout the world follow an incredibly broad spectrum of belief and practice, including an extremely broad set of views about how to relate to other cultures. At the most conservative end, there are some communities who view it as an essential life priority to try to follow all of the laws of the Torah fully and literally. This may include not only the dietary and Sabbath laws, but also rules about sexual modesty and limiting physical contact between the sexes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah and for some people also varying degrees of effort to limit social interactions with non-Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael See generally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism for the people who are making the most conscious effort to be socially and culturally separate from secular society.
- notahacker 11y ago
  It still seems very strange to single them out to Europeans, where strictly observant Jews are a tiny minority, especially when in many respects the most strictly observant Judaism resembles far more mainstream Islamic culture, with Muslims being a much larger, more likely to be foreign-born and faster-growing minority. (This is also reflected in the way anti-Semitic sentiment in Western Europe tends to focus on Israel and perceived Zionist conspiracies whilst Islamophobic sentiment tends to focus on the idea that Islam could never be compatible with European culture)
- Htsthbjig 11y ago
  First time I traveled to Israel I was surprised to see so many Jews that were actually atheist or non religious practitioners.
vessenes 11y ago
I was wrong on Turkey, thanks for pointing it out. Inre: Jews in Europe, I was referring to more strictly observant Jewish communities, a feature of life in Europe for hundreds of years, sometimes coalescing into voluntary Jewish quarters and often in involuntary ghettos. There are places in America that you would feel very uncomfortable walking if you were without a beard, hat and tzitzit (a vest/shirt with tassels). I don't know if Denmark has a population so observant, but if it does, I would bet they consciously try not to integrate into general society. Denmark has a proud history of standing up to Hitler in WW2 inre: Jewish rights, and if I lived there, I would be proud of it. I think that the acculturation issues are deeper than you seem to, though. For instance, I'm half Greek -- I can tell you for some Greeks cheating the system is a cultural positive. That is so very, very different than what you describe in Denmark. And that culture-cheating perspective is far more common in the Mediterranean basin than it seems to be up North, for whatever reason. If my grandfather was any indication, you can put an immigrant in a new country (America in my case), but you will not take away the whole culture. It takes a generation or two, and that's in a population that's pretty aggressive about assimilation -- greek immigrants are encouraged to go to good universities and climb the social ladder. My grandfather was full of stories about working the system until he died, and he was proud of them. I don't think it's uncommon.
- bjelkeman-again 11y ago
  One reason why cheating on the system is heavily frowned upon in the Nordics is that generally the system is considered fair, without much corruption and we have chosen for the system to be generous. When you then cheat then you are essentially stealing from everyone and it is considered bad.
  - mercurial 11y ago
    Also, taxes are particularly high, so people who do pay them are not happy about people who don't. But it's really a cultural thing. In France, my garage would offer two options for paying, "with receipt" and "without receipt" as they put it nicely. This didn't raise an eyebrow.

by useerup 11y ago

schoen 11y ago

> In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish. I'm sure those aren't the people the parent commenter was referring to. Jews throughout the world follow an incredibly broad spectrum of belief and practice, including an extremely broad set of views about how to relate to other cultures. At the most conservative end, there are some communities who view it as an essential life priority to try to follow all of the laws of the Torah fully and literally. This may include not only the dietary and Sabbath laws, but also rules about sexual modesty and limiting physical contact between the sexes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah and for some people also varying degrees of effort to limit social interactions with non-Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael See generally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism for the people who are making the most conscious effort to be socially and culturally separate from secular society.

notahacker 11y ago
It still seems very strange to single them out to Europeans, where strictly observant Jews are a tiny minority, especially when in many respects the most strictly observant Judaism resembles far more mainstream Islamic culture, with Muslims being a much larger, more likely to be foreign-born and faster-growing minority. (This is also reflected in the way anti-Semitic sentiment in Western Europe tends to focus on Israel and perceived Zionist conspiracies whilst Islamophobic sentiment tends to focus on the idea that Islam could never be compatible with European culture)
Htsthbjig 11y ago
First time I traveled to Israel I was surprised to see so many Jews that were actually atheist or non religious practitioners.

vessenes 11y ago

I was wrong on Turkey, thanks for pointing it out. Inre: Jews in Europe, I was referring to more strictly observant Jewish communities, a feature of life in Europe for hundreds of years, sometimes coalescing into voluntary Jewish quarters and often in involuntary ghettos. There are places in America that you would feel very uncomfortable walking if you were without a beard, hat and tzitzit (a vest/shirt with tassels). I don't know if Denmark has a population so observant, but if it does, I would bet they consciously try not to integrate into general society. Denmark has a proud history of standing up to Hitler in WW2 inre: Jewish rights, and if I lived there, I would be proud of it. I think that the acculturation issues are deeper than you seem to, though. For instance, I'm half Greek -- I can tell you for some Greeks cheating the system is a cultural positive. That is so very, very different than what you describe in Denmark. And that culture-cheating perspective is far more common in the Mediterranean basin than it seems to be up North, for whatever reason. If my grandfather was any indication, you can put an immigrant in a new country (America in my case), but you will not take away the whole culture. It takes a generation or two, and that's in a population that's pretty aggressive about assimilation -- greek immigrants are encouraged to go to good universities and climb the social ladder. My grandfather was full of stories about working the system until he died, and he was proud of them. I don't think it's uncommon.

bjelkeman-again 11y ago
One reason why cheating on the system is heavily frowned upon in the Nordics is that generally the system is considered fair, without much corruption and we have chosen for the system to be generous. When you then cheat then you are essentially stealing from everyone and it is considered bad.
- mercurial 11y ago
  Also, taxes are particularly high, so people who do pay them are not happy about people who don't. But it's really a cultural thing. In France, my garage would offer two options for paying, "with receipt" and "without receipt" as they put it nicely. This didn't raise an eyebrow.