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Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are system

by kamau 11y ago

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is very very white. Just take a look at this thread, in which we have jimmywagner asserting that Black and Latino people are liabilities, and michaelbuddy asserting that systemic issues are "ghosts". They are of course entitled to their opinions (however much I may disagree with them), but honestly that type of hostility masked as objectivity gets old really quick. I can expand later if anyone is interested in a real conversation.

falsestprophet 11y ago
"tech is very very white" Sure tech is generally non-black, but there are load of East Asians and South Asians. It's not exactly the Augusta National Golf Club. There are a lot of places in corporate information technology in the US where tech is "very very" Indian and a white or black or hispanic person may very well be the only non-Indian (or even US citizen or permanent resident) in the room or on the team.
- lumpypua 11y ago
  Very very east Asian is also common.
- gtk40 11y ago
  Agreed. Even in a metro with very low Asian population, we have a lot of Asian workers in my I.T. department and it seems to be the case for other companies nearby. Probably we are about 65% non-Hispanic white (including eastern europeans and foreign workers in that number), 30% Asian (about half Asian and half east Asian, with a few southeast Asians), 5% black and Hispanic.
- kamau 11y ago
  You are correct. My current place of employment is very Indian. In many ways, however, there is less tension in those situations. Often times whites tend to treat non whites in a certain manner that is less than... Now, I am not trying to paint all whites in tech with a broad brush (even if I sounds very much like I am). White people are cool with me, and if I'm to be honest, I have more white friends right now than I do black. So please, understand I am not trying to say "All white people...". I'm not angry. I am instead giving an honest assessment of my experience in tech for the last 15 years, and how it may relate to this story.
- some-guy 11y ago
  It does vary quite a bit. I've found that the startup scene in SF is extremely white comparatively to the enterprise software company that I work for in SF. The point still stands though if you replace the word "white" with "non-black / hispanic". There are vast cultural and systemic barriers that some minorities go through in the United States (black / latino) to get to becoming a software engineer, and not others (Asian).
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InclinedPlane 11y ago
Not long ago there was a report that came out on the quality of work of women software engineers. Turns out it was significantly higher than for the average male software enginee. This is actually not a good thing, and many people came to the wrong conclusions about it. My reading is that women aren't being hired in software unless they can prove themselves to a higher standard than men. I suspect the same is true for lots of other groups (like blacks and hispanics). There remains pernicious and not widely appreciated systemic bias in this industry, and until it's even acknowledged we're not going to have much luck in tackling it.
- MollyR 11y ago
  That report was highly suspect and HN had a large difference of opinion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11102712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11102712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11074587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11074587 I would really recommend this article http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-exci...
- chroma 11y ago
  That report was simply not true. If anything, it showed there was no bias based on sex. In addition to MollyR's links, see Slate Star Codex's Before You Get Too Excited About that GitHub Study.[1] 1. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-exci... Edit: If my comment seems unnecessary, it's because MollyR edited-in a link to the Slate Star Codex post before I finished mine. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's read SSC's rebuttal.
rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
I see it as a reasonable continuation of college and professional experience that becomes a problem for both sides when the issue is simply "diversity" without asking deeper questions as to why. If a college has a large white population, most white people will be friends with mostly white people. Maybe a few start a company. They refer to their networks for early employees. Those networks are mostly white. The early employees become managers and hire primarily through the same channels, perpetuating the imbalance (as defined by having vastly unequal representation compared to the general population). I have trouble prescribing solutions to diversity imbalances because it is hard to say where and when the imbalance is a problem. The only thing I can imagine that would be helpful is to have more people of different backgrounds engage each other on each other's turf. Make friends. Maybe start a business. Let the networks expand from day one. Otherwise, you're always playing catch-up. As an aside, I attended RIT, which, aside from being overwhelmingly white, contains the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, which has an awe-inspiring diversity in its student body. That proximity taught me a lot about deaf and hard-of-hearing culture, which, because of the aforementioned incredible racial diversity, taught me a lot about lives other than my own as well.
aikah 11y ago
> the "only black person in the room" I can't begin to understand how it is an issue, and I'm black (and European). I don't care about the color or the sex of my coworkers. What difference does it make? you can't relate to white people? No the main issue is networking and going out of one's own "sphere" or microcosm. > So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace If they really like programming then they should worry about programming first and foremost, not how diverse is their environment. But maybe it's because of my upbringing, when I was the only black in a class of 30 students, I didn't have the time or any interest in worrying about the "blackness" of the classroom. I didn't have the time to worry about my tastes being "black" or white or whatever. Do some people have it easier because they are white ? Sure, people trust their kin more, and you talking about being "only black person in the room" is in my opinion the expression of that fact. What is true for white people is also true for black people, it's human nature.
- kamau 11y ago
  > I can't begin to understand how it is an issue, and I'm black (and European). I don't care about the color or the sex of my coworkers. What difference does it make? you can't relate to white people? No the main issue is networking and going out of one's own "sphere" or microcosm. Read my comment later, where I mentioned that I have more white friends than black friends. I have no problem with white people. And no, I don't care about the color or sex of my coworkers. Instead, I was describing a very real phenomenom which may have been overlooked in the article. > If they really like programming then they should worry about programming first and foremost, not how diverse is their environment. But maybe it's because of my upbringing, when I was the only black in a class of 30 students, I didn't have the time or any interest in worrying about the "blackness" of the classroom. I didn't have the time to worry about my tastes being "black" or white or whatever. Not sure if you or I should say what those students should be worrying about. I think you may be missing my point. I made no mention about what those students should do. Instead, I talked about what they may be doing. > Sure, people trust their kin more, and you talking about being "only black person in the room" is in my opinion the expression of that fact. Actually that came from my personal experience (and that of many other POC) of trusting people who are not my kin, and then having race be brought up in a way that was detrimental to me.
bobosha 11y ago
@kamau - imagine how it was for the first indian or chinese in an totally white male company? how was it for when women started entering the workforce in the 60s/70s? Unfortunately such despicable racist attitudes are prevalent, perhaps widely. But I would argue tech is a meritocracy - not perfect - but very much a meritocracy. "Be the change you want".
- kamau 11y ago
  I don't have to imagine. I've been the first or only Black person in more than one company. I'm already the change I want. I'm just waiting for the rest of y'all (not necessarily you) to catch up.
  - bobosha 11y ago
    Then you should know better than computing black:white ratios. How's that an issue? I too am a racial minority in my team and my color has never has been an issue. It becomes an issue if you consciously make it one (as you did ITT)
    - kamau 11y ago
      Good for you. I mean that sincerely. I've personally had my color be an issue at 2 different jobs. I left those jobs. The reason that I mention ratios is that I think that people (all people) behave better in more diverse environments. And that sometimes when ratios are skewed one way or another, those in the majority can be a bit tone deaf to others. Just an observation of human nature. If you think race is too hot of an issue, or one that you think could never be a possibility, imagine another line : gender, class, income, neighborhood, etc. I'm sure that eventually you'll see what I mean.
      - kelukelugames 11y ago
        "I too am a racial minority on my team" could mean white guy with a bunch of Asians. I'm sorry but that's not nearly the same thing as other scenarios in the US. And plenty people of color put on race blinders or never encounter any issues, but that doesn't mean hostile environments do not exist. In my personal experience, it varies wildly from city to city and company to company. I've worked at companies that celebrate black history month and companies where white managers think it's fun to touch black women's hair.
dang 11y ago
> hostility masked as objectivity Well put. Thanks for posting valuable comments instead of responding in kind—it greatly improved this thread. It takes longer for reflective and informative comments to show up than it does for reflexive ones, but they do eventually. It takes time to think and write something good. And often a thoughtful comment only gets posted because someone feels compelled to reply to a glib one. Here's an example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11184489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11184489.

by kamau 11y ago

falsestprophet 11y ago

"tech is very very white" Sure tech is generally non-black, but there are load of East Asians and South Asians. It's not exactly the Augusta National Golf Club. There are a lot of places in corporate information technology in the US where tech is "very very" Indian and a white or black or hispanic person may very well be the only non-Indian (or even US citizen or permanent resident) in the room or on the team.

lumpypua 11y ago
Very very east Asian is also common.
gtk40 11y ago
Agreed. Even in a metro with very low Asian population, we have a lot of Asian workers in my I.T. department and it seems to be the case for other companies nearby. Probably we are about 65% non-Hispanic white (including eastern europeans and foreign workers in that number), 30% Asian (about half Asian and half east Asian, with a few southeast Asians), 5% black and Hispanic.
kamau 11y ago
You are correct. My current place of employment is very Indian. In many ways, however, there is less tension in those situations. Often times whites tend to treat non whites in a certain manner that is less than... Now, I am not trying to paint all whites in tech with a broad brush (even if I sounds very much like I am). White people are cool with me, and if I'm to be honest, I have more white friends right now than I do black. So please, understand I am not trying to say "All white people...". I'm not angry. I am instead giving an honest assessment of my experience in tech for the last 15 years, and how it may relate to this story.
some-guy 11y ago
It does vary quite a bit. I've found that the startup scene in SF is extremely white comparatively to the enterprise software company that I work for in SF. The point still stands though if you replace the word "white" with "non-black / hispanic". There are vast cultural and systemic barriers that some minorities go through in the United States (black / latino) to get to becoming a software engineer, and not others (Asian).
deleted 11y ago
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InclinedPlane 11y ago

Not long ago there was a report that came out on the quality of work of women software engineers. Turns out it was significantly higher than for the average male software enginee. This is actually not a good thing, and many people came to the wrong conclusions about it. My reading is that women aren't being hired in software unless they can prove themselves to a higher standard than men. I suspect the same is true for lots of other groups (like blacks and hispanics). There remains pernicious and not widely appreciated systemic bias in this industry, and until it's even acknowledged we're not going to have much luck in tackling it.

MollyR 11y ago
That report was highly suspect and HN had a large difference of opinion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11102712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11102712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11074587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11074587 I would really recommend this article http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-exci...
chroma 11y ago
That report was simply not true. If anything, it showed there was no bias based on sex. In addition to MollyR's links, see Slate Star Codex's Before You Get Too Excited About that GitHub Study.[1] 1. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-exci... Edit: If my comment seems unnecessary, it's because MollyR edited-in a link to the Slate Star Codex post before I finished mine. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's read SSC's rebuttal.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

I see it as a reasonable continuation of college and professional experience that becomes a problem for both sides when the issue is simply "diversity" without asking deeper questions as to why. If a college has a large white population, most white people will be friends with mostly white people. Maybe a few start a company. They refer to their networks for early employees. Those networks are mostly white. The early employees become managers and hire primarily through the same channels, perpetuating the imbalance (as defined by having vastly unequal representation compared to the general population). I have trouble prescribing solutions to diversity imbalances because it is hard to say where and when the imbalance is a problem. The only thing I can imagine that would be helpful is to have more people of different backgrounds engage each other on each other's turf. Make friends. Maybe start a business. Let the networks expand from day one. Otherwise, you're always playing catch-up. As an aside, I attended RIT, which, aside from being overwhelmingly white, contains the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, which has an awe-inspiring diversity in its student body. That proximity taught me a lot about deaf and hard-of-hearing culture, which, because of the aforementioned incredible racial diversity, taught me a lot about lives other than my own as well.

aikah 11y ago

> the "only black person in the room" I can't begin to understand how it is an issue, and I'm black (and European). I don't care about the color or the sex of my coworkers. What difference does it make? you can't relate to white people? No the main issue is networking and going out of one's own "sphere" or microcosm. > So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace If they really like programming then they should worry about programming first and foremost, not how diverse is their environment. But maybe it's because of my upbringing, when I was the only black in a class of 30 students, I didn't have the time or any interest in worrying about the "blackness" of the classroom. I didn't have the time to worry about my tastes being "black" or white or whatever. Do some people have it easier because they are white ? Sure, people trust their kin more, and you talking about being "only black person in the room" is in my opinion the expression of that fact. What is true for white people is also true for black people, it's human nature.

kamau 11y ago
> I can't begin to understand how it is an issue, and I'm black (and European). I don't care about the color or the sex of my coworkers. What difference does it make? you can't relate to white people? No the main issue is networking and going out of one's own "sphere" or microcosm. Read my comment later, where I mentioned that I have more white friends than black friends. I have no problem with white people. And no, I don't care about the color or sex of my coworkers. Instead, I was describing a very real phenomenom which may have been overlooked in the article. > If they really like programming then they should worry about programming first and foremost, not how diverse is their environment. But maybe it's because of my upbringing, when I was the only black in a class of 30 students, I didn't have the time or any interest in worrying about the "blackness" of the classroom. I didn't have the time to worry about my tastes being "black" or white or whatever. Not sure if you or I should say what those students should be worrying about. I think you may be missing my point. I made no mention about what those students should do. Instead, I talked about what they may be doing. > Sure, people trust their kin more, and you talking about being "only black person in the room" is in my opinion the expression of that fact. Actually that came from my personal experience (and that of many other POC) of trusting people who are not my kin, and then having race be brought up in a way that was detrimental to me.

bobosha 11y ago

@kamau - imagine how it was for the first indian or chinese in an totally white male company? how was it for when women started entering the workforce in the 60s/70s? Unfortunately such despicable racist attitudes are prevalent, perhaps widely. But I would argue tech is a meritocracy - not perfect - but very much a meritocracy. "Be the change you want".

kamau 11y ago
I don't have to imagine. I've been the first or only Black person in more than one company. I'm already the change I want. I'm just waiting for the rest of y'all (not necessarily you) to catch up.
- bobosha 11y ago
  Then you should know better than computing black:white ratios. How's that an issue? I too am a racial minority in my team and my color has never has been an issue. It becomes an issue if you consciously make it one (as you did ITT)
  - kamau 11y ago
    Good for you. I mean that sincerely. I've personally had my color be an issue at 2 different jobs. I left those jobs. The reason that I mention ratios is that I think that people (all people) behave better in more diverse environments. And that sometimes when ratios are skewed one way or another, those in the majority can be a bit tone deaf to others. Just an observation of human nature. If you think race is too hot of an issue, or one that you think could never be a possibility, imagine another line : gender, class, income, neighborhood, etc. I'm sure that eventually you'll see what I mean.
    - kelukelugames 11y ago
      "I too am a racial minority on my team" could mean white guy with a bunch of Asians. I'm sorry but that's not nearly the same thing as other scenarios in the US. And plenty people of color put on race blinders or never encounter any issues, but that doesn't mean hostile environments do not exist. In my personal experience, it varies wildly from city to city and company to company. I've worked at companies that celebrate black history month and companies where white managers think it's fun to touch black women's hair.

dang 11y ago

> hostility masked as objectivity Well put. Thanks for posting valuable comments instead of responding in kind—it greatly improved this thread. It takes longer for reflective and informative comments to show up than it does for reflexive ones, but they do eventually. It takes time to think and write something good. And often a thoughtful comment only gets posted because someone feels compelled to reply to a glib one. Here's an example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11184489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11184489.