3 ms·

It pains me greatly that the tech industry lacks diversity from minorities like blacks, hispanics, and women. However, I strongly believe that looking at the te

by Archio 11y ago

It pains me greatly that the tech industry lacks diversity from minorities like blacks, hispanics, and women. However, I strongly believe that looking at the tech companies and asking why they don't hire more minorities is totally missing the real problem. This is of course one datapoint, but the university I went to (top engineering school in the Northeast US) hosts a big panel for computer-field majors at the annual admissions event. Any students remotely interested in technical majors are invited to attend - you don't even need to be accepted to the university. The marketing for the event makes it as clear as possible that no prior programming experience is required, they just want to get people excited about computing. When I served on the panel as a CS student, I looked out the audience and saw a fully packed room (300+ people) of almost entirely white/Asian male prospective students and their parents. At that point, how do you recover and get diverse people? How do you get people interested when everyone showing up fits the same description? In my view, the problem starts way before college/job seeking. I was lucky, as a white male, that my parents noticed and encouraged my technical interests at an early age. By the time I was entering college, I had years of programming experience, not even at any company, but just working on my laptop in my bedroom. It kills me that so many minorities and women never even get that opportunity. Parents of young girls don't seem to see/nurture those interests, and sometimes actively encourage them not to go into technology. It makes perfect sense that later they're not interested in pursuing college/careers in computers. I have worked at companies where the people doing hiring have literally whispered (since it is illegal to say so) that they are desperate to hire minorities and women. I once heard someone say, "Man, I would love to hire this person, but I have to be fair, and if they were male I would have rejected them immediately". Yes, tech companies need to be as accepting as possible towards minorities and women. Yes, minorities and women need role models in the industry. But we've got to start at the source at the problem and get parents to allow their children to be interested in computers in the first place!

stephaniepier 11y ago
I agree. Speaking from my own experience, I didn't even really understand what computer science was until I was in college (I'm female and from a small town). I had taken a "make your own website" summer class in grade school where we did some super basic HTML but that was it. Why would I choose computer science as a major when I was never really exposed to it and didn't even know what it entailed? I'm now starting to learn python on my own and I think computer science could have been a really good fit for me. I think encouraging kids is a great first step.
fixermark 11y ago
The sentiment is sometimes expressed as "The pipeline is leaky and full of acid." While true, it doesn't imply that companies should just sit on their hands and wait for the system to be fixed around them. Companies are the core of the power structure economically; they need to be taking an active role in fixing their pipelines.
- ThrustVectoring 11y ago
  Uh, what? Tech companies aren't obviously the correct place to be applying leverage. They could already be hiring more women and minorities than you'd expect given STEM interest levels in high school. If the fundamental problem is that something is happening to people before graduating high school, I'd take a much more critical look at schooling, child-rearing, and cultural factors. Schooling is particularly worrying - it's got a troubling focus on instilling conformity, and AFAIK that's both more effective on women and particularly damaging to creative work like computer programming.
  - fixermark 11y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding: I'm not talking about tech companies changing their hiring goals. I'm talking about tech companies reaching out to schools (college, high school, middle school level) to get a sense of what they need and to help them give students the opportunities to pursue computer science and other technological careers based on their interest. There's a knowledge and understanding gap on both sides---both in terms of what companies understand about how students are prepared and what schools understand about what skillsets students need to excel in technology fields. It turns out outreach and active participation can be valuable to bridge that gap.
    - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
      >I'm talking about tech companies reaching out to schools (college, high school, middle school level) to get a sense of what they need and to help them give students the opportunities to pursue computer science and other technological careers based on their interest. And if you want that to happen, you need to set up incentives such that it's in tech companies best interests to do so. You can't just say that things would be better if something were to happen - identifying problems is the easy part. Identifying what needs to change and how to change it is the hard part.
afarrell 11y ago
One idea might be to identify majority-black and majority-hispanic schools who don't have a computer science program and and establish a fund which can either pay the schools directly to establish them or set up well-advertised after-school programs to try to fill the gap.
whitegrape 11y ago
Why does it pain you greatly? Does it do the same for other professions like nursing? My entryway into computers was "I want to build a website like this one, but better." This same opportunity exists for everyone with a web browser, which is most everyone. You had the additional fortune of parents seeking out opportunities for you, but it was not necessary, and I suspect you'd have found your way to tech eventually even with no external support. Maybe it's painful because you want more diversity in your life? Why not fulfill that desire outside of work? Maybe it's painful to work on legacy stuff that you're sure with a more diverse mindset wouldn't be so crufty? I think we've come impressively far with the current (and in the past "worse") state of affairs, clearly we don't need the diversity to accomplish greatness. I'm on a team with Indians, Koreans, Chinese...and two other white guys. Our manager is black. Our manager's manager is a woman. I don't think this diversity gives us any technical advantage, but since we're all competent, there's not really any disadvantage, this is just how the dice fell for us. The only way this diversity impacts me is that my name gets mispronounced (and vice versa for some of them). But as you mention there are a lot of diversity advocates who want diversity over merit for some mysterious reason and will actively sabotage teams to get it.

by Archio 11y ago

stephaniepier 11y ago

I agree. Speaking from my own experience, I didn't even really understand what computer science was until I was in college (I'm female and from a small town). I had taken a "make your own website" summer class in grade school where we did some super basic HTML but that was it. Why would I choose computer science as a major when I was never really exposed to it and didn't even know what it entailed? I'm now starting to learn python on my own and I think computer science could have been a really good fit for me. I think encouraging kids is a great first step.

fixermark 11y ago

The sentiment is sometimes expressed as "The pipeline is leaky and full of acid." While true, it doesn't imply that companies should just sit on their hands and wait for the system to be fixed around them. Companies are the core of the power structure economically; they need to be taking an active role in fixing their pipelines.

ThrustVectoring 11y ago
Uh, what? Tech companies aren't obviously the correct place to be applying leverage. They could already be hiring more women and minorities than you'd expect given STEM interest levels in high school. If the fundamental problem is that something is happening to people before graduating high school, I'd take a much more critical look at schooling, child-rearing, and cultural factors. Schooling is particularly worrying - it's got a troubling focus on instilling conformity, and AFAIK that's both more effective on women and particularly damaging to creative work like computer programming.
- fixermark 11y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding: I'm not talking about tech companies changing their hiring goals. I'm talking about tech companies reaching out to schools (college, high school, middle school level) to get a sense of what they need and to help them give students the opportunities to pursue computer science and other technological careers based on their interest. There's a knowledge and understanding gap on both sides---both in terms of what companies understand about how students are prepared and what schools understand about what skillsets students need to excel in technology fields. It turns out outreach and active participation can be valuable to bridge that gap.
  - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
    >I'm talking about tech companies reaching out to schools (college, high school, middle school level) to get a sense of what they need and to help them give students the opportunities to pursue computer science and other technological careers based on their interest. And if you want that to happen, you need to set up incentives such that it's in tech companies best interests to do so. You can't just say that things would be better if something were to happen - identifying problems is the easy part. Identifying what needs to change and how to change it is the hard part.

afarrell 11y ago

One idea might be to identify majority-black and majority-hispanic schools who don't have a computer science program and and establish a fund which can either pay the schools directly to establish them or set up well-advertised after-school programs to try to fill the gap.

whitegrape 11y ago

Why does it pain you greatly? Does it do the same for other professions like nursing? My entryway into computers was "I want to build a website like this one, but better." This same opportunity exists for everyone with a web browser, which is most everyone. You had the additional fortune of parents seeking out opportunities for you, but it was not necessary, and I suspect you'd have found your way to tech eventually even with no external support. Maybe it's painful because you want more diversity in your life? Why not fulfill that desire outside of work? Maybe it's painful to work on legacy stuff that you're sure with a more diverse mindset wouldn't be so crufty? I think we've come impressively far with the current (and in the past "worse") state of affairs, clearly we don't need the diversity to accomplish greatness. I'm on a team with Indians, Koreans, Chinese...and two other white guys. Our manager is black. Our manager's manager is a woman. I don't think this diversity gives us any technical advantage, but since we're all competent, there's not really any disadvantage, this is just how the dice fell for us. The only way this diversity impacts me is that my name gets mispronounced (and vice versa for some of them). But as you mention there are a lot of diversity advocates who want diversity over merit for some mysterious reason and will actively sabotage teams to get it.