6 ms·

This looks interesting but does anybody else think that the code of conduct might drive people away from the project? http://oden-lang.org/code-of-conduct/ htt

by notoden 11y ago

This looks interesting but does anybody else think that the code of conduct might drive people away from the project? http://oden-lang.org/code-of-conduct/ http://oden-lang.org/code-of-conduct/ My gut feeling is that an early stage project such as Oden should simply focus on the technology, grow the community and then at a later stage consult with the community if they want to introduce a code of conduct.

richard_todd 11y ago
Though I really shouldn't care, I admit it kinda turned me off when I saw the prominent code of conduct. I don't think they are needed (you can ban a troublemaker without a document) and I don't think they are effective (never met a bully that cared if a piece of paper said "be nice"). But mostly, seeing these codes pop up everywhere bothers me because I like to think of hobby software as one of the last realms on earth where you can have a meritocracy without the politically correct nonsense that eats at your soul the rest of the day. I feel like the open source community is starting to get tainted, somehow, and I hope in time there's a strong reaction the other way.
- glenda 11y ago
  I agree that political correctness should not be the focus of a technical discussion, and like-wise there shouldn't be anything remotely offensive in those kinds of discussions either. Just as political correctness eats away at your soul, racism/sexism/etc... do too. You're free to run your own projects however you want; the maintainer of Oden obviously doesn't want to work with people who require the freedom to be offensive in public forums. If that offends you then don't work on it.
  - throw12111 11y ago
    It's more nuanced than that: Many people have no intention of being offensive but don't want to be regulated either. CoC projects often attract the worst politicians who are just acceptably polite on the surface but absolutely cold and ruthless in their actions. Ironically, these people also often tend to blog about politeness in OSS.
    - ryan_lane 11y ago
      No one is forcing you to work on the project. If you think this is how CoC works, then stop working on projects that add them. The rest of us will work on whatever projects we want and hopefully every piece of crap will decide they don't want to work on any of the projects because they're offended by CoCs.
  - lliamander 11y ago
    > the maintainer of Oden obviously doesn't want to work with people who require the freedom to be offensive in public forums. I'm sure that is the intent, but they make the code of conduct explicitly (and I would say somewhat aggressively) political. I think that it will deter a number of otherwise respectful and conscientious people. In any case, I am glad that they are publishing a code of conduct. I don't like the content of the particular CoC they chose, but at least I know where they stand. As for the project itself, it looks really cool. It seems to be addressing the kind of concerns that keep people like myself from engaging in the Go ecosystem.
- untog 11y ago
  I like to think of hobby software as one of the last realms on earth where you can have a meritocracy I like to think that, but I'm really not convinced that it's true.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    Can you expand upon that?
- vertex-four 11y ago
  There's already a very strong reaction the other way - every time a project with a CoC is posted here or anywhere else, it's pointed out with plenty of people agreeing that it's awful and a blight on society. The PHP community has people outright angry about its attempt at passing even an extremely watered-down CoC which essentially says "as long as you don't explicitly say 'on behalf of the PHP project, we all hate your guts, <insert slur here>', it's fine". And yet every time a project without a CoC is posted, nobody says a word - that's the default, that's what's expected.
- goldbrick 11y ago
  I agree with you that the code of conduct initially felt a bit eh -- but the thing is, can you really ban a troublemaker without a standard? Otherwise you start a whole drama war and leadership gets accused of playing favorites and it's just a clusterfuck nobody wants. While it would be equally as nice to pretend everybody could just be fucking polite human beings as to pretend a true "meritocracy" could exist, that's just not reality.
jnbiche 11y ago
> focus on the technology, grow the community and then at a later stage consult with the community if they want to introduce a code of conduct. Yeah, that approach didn't work out too hot for nanomsg. I'm not a big fan of CoC's[1], but if you're doing to use one, best to be up-front about it, so people can make an informed decision about whether or not they want to participate in the project. Rather than springing it on them later. 1. I prefer a ruthless enforcement of the standards of polite company. Chances are your mama/daddy/grandma taught you how to behave. Just enforce that, no reason to use some (often) patronizing document to enforce society standards.
steego 11y ago
I just had a sinking feeling in my stomach that in a few years we might have to amend Wadler's Law of Language Design to include bickering over the code of conduct. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4287 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4287 Somebody shoot me when that happens.
noelwelsh 11y ago
Nope. It's great to set your expectations from the start. The community created now will set the tone for the rest of the project.
_ak 11y ago
The funny thing is, if you're not being an asshole to people, and stay on-topic, you will never have any problem with the CoC. Keeping out the wrong kind of crowd from the start actually sounds like a better idea than (in the worst case) having to fix a shitty community after the fact.
- 13thLetter 11y ago
  > The funny thing is, if you're not being an asshole to people, and stay on-topic, you will never have any problem with the CoC Unless you post a political opinion that someone doesn't like on your own Twitter feed. Then you're in for it, cf. Opalgate.
untog 11y ago
Which do you think is the mode effective time to implement a style guide: at the start of a project or after thousands of lines of code have been committed? I don't see this as being dramatically different - establishing the ground rules for contributors before they commit a single line, so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to be involved or not.
vertex-four 11y ago
Rust started with a CoC - in fact, its founder states that it wouldn't have been started without one. When starting a project, you're not just starting writing a bunch of code. You're potentially starting an entire community, and in time an entire ecosystem. You can't pretend that you're just writing code and ignore the people developing and using it. Simply taking the default stance ("liberty is paramount, over and above people's protection from harassment and discrimination") is not apolitical, here or anywhere else. Most people would not like to found a community that winds up going against their ethics on hugely important things related to the community and project itself. If you were an ethical vegan, you'd be unlikely to start a forum for steak-eaters - and if you're ethically pro-social-justice, you're unlikely to start a community based on unrestricted free speech within that community. To do anything else is to explicitly and intentionally support what you believe to be unethical, which is inherently unethical in itself.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
I have no interest in oden, but I think it's good to get those kind of people out of a community as soon as possible, and they can go work on urbit or something instead.
pythia__ 11y ago
I think your objection is less to codes of conduct as such than to their usual contents and the kind of environment they intend to create. You can have a very different code of conduct, e.g., one that goes something like this: 1. Don't be rude. 2. Don't be stupid. 3. Check your identity politics at the door. 4. Listen to the moderators. 5. Do not complain about rules 1-5.
- adiabatty 11y ago
  Relatedly, there's a Code of Merit that has vaguely similar aims: <http://code-of-merit.org> http://code-of-merit.org>. I don't expect it's everyone's cup of tea (I'm not even sure I'd use it unedited, if at all), but there's work being done in this space that isn't a variant of, say, the Contributor Covenant.

by notoden 11y ago

richard_todd 11y ago

Though I really shouldn't care, I admit it kinda turned me off when I saw the prominent code of conduct. I don't think they are needed (you can ban a troublemaker without a document) and I don't think they are effective (never met a bully that cared if a piece of paper said "be nice"). But mostly, seeing these codes pop up everywhere bothers me because I like to think of hobby software as one of the last realms on earth where you can have a meritocracy without the politically correct nonsense that eats at your soul the rest of the day. I feel like the open source community is starting to get tainted, somehow, and I hope in time there's a strong reaction the other way.

glenda 11y ago
I agree that political correctness should not be the focus of a technical discussion, and like-wise there shouldn't be anything remotely offensive in those kinds of discussions either. Just as political correctness eats away at your soul, racism/sexism/etc... do too. You're free to run your own projects however you want; the maintainer of Oden obviously doesn't want to work with people who require the freedom to be offensive in public forums. If that offends you then don't work on it.
- throw12111 11y ago
  It's more nuanced than that: Many people have no intention of being offensive but don't want to be regulated either. CoC projects often attract the worst politicians who are just acceptably polite on the surface but absolutely cold and ruthless in their actions. Ironically, these people also often tend to blog about politeness in OSS.
  - ryan_lane 11y ago
    No one is forcing you to work on the project. If you think this is how CoC works, then stop working on projects that add them. The rest of us will work on whatever projects we want and hopefully every piece of crap will decide they don't want to work on any of the projects because they're offended by CoCs.
- lliamander 11y ago
  > the maintainer of Oden obviously doesn't want to work with people who require the freedom to be offensive in public forums. I'm sure that is the intent, but they make the code of conduct explicitly (and I would say somewhat aggressively) political. I think that it will deter a number of otherwise respectful and conscientious people. In any case, I am glad that they are publishing a code of conduct. I don't like the content of the particular CoC they chose, but at least I know where they stand. As for the project itself, it looks really cool. It seems to be addressing the kind of concerns that keep people like myself from engaging in the Go ecosystem.
untog 11y ago
I like to think of hobby software as one of the last realms on earth where you can have a meritocracy I like to think that, but I'm really not convinced that it's true.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  Can you expand upon that?
vertex-four 11y ago
There's already a very strong reaction the other way - every time a project with a CoC is posted here or anywhere else, it's pointed out with plenty of people agreeing that it's awful and a blight on society. The PHP community has people outright angry about its attempt at passing even an extremely watered-down CoC which essentially says "as long as you don't explicitly say 'on behalf of the PHP project, we all hate your guts, <insert slur here>', it's fine". And yet every time a project without a CoC is posted, nobody says a word - that's the default, that's what's expected.
goldbrick 11y ago
I agree with you that the code of conduct initially felt a bit eh -- but the thing is, can you really ban a troublemaker without a standard? Otherwise you start a whole drama war and leadership gets accused of playing favorites and it's just a clusterfuck nobody wants. While it would be equally as nice to pretend everybody could just be fucking polite human beings as to pretend a true "meritocracy" could exist, that's just not reality.

jnbiche 11y ago

> focus on the technology, grow the community and then at a later stage consult with the community if they want to introduce a code of conduct. Yeah, that approach didn't work out too hot for nanomsg. I'm not a big fan of CoC's[1], but if you're doing to use one, best to be up-front about it, so people can make an informed decision about whether or not they want to participate in the project. Rather than springing it on them later. 1. I prefer a ruthless enforcement of the standards of polite company. Chances are your mama/daddy/grandma taught you how to behave. Just enforce that, no reason to use some (often) patronizing document to enforce society standards.

steego 11y ago

I just had a sinking feeling in my stomach that in a few years we might have to amend Wadler's Law of Language Design to include bickering over the code of conduct. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4287 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4287 Somebody shoot me when that happens.

noelwelsh 11y ago

Nope. It's great to set your expectations from the start. The community created now will set the tone for the rest of the project.

_ak 11y ago

The funny thing is, if you're not being an asshole to people, and stay on-topic, you will never have any problem with the CoC. Keeping out the wrong kind of crowd from the start actually sounds like a better idea than (in the worst case) having to fix a shitty community after the fact.

13thLetter 11y ago
> The funny thing is, if you're not being an asshole to people, and stay on-topic, you will never have any problem with the CoC Unless you post a political opinion that someone doesn't like on your own Twitter feed. Then you're in for it, cf. Opalgate.

untog 11y ago

Which do you think is the mode effective time to implement a style guide: at the start of a project or after thousands of lines of code have been committed? I don't see this as being dramatically different - establishing the ground rules for contributors before they commit a single line, so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to be involved or not.

vertex-four 11y ago

Rust started with a CoC - in fact, its founder states that it wouldn't have been started without one. When starting a project, you're not just starting writing a bunch of code. You're potentially starting an entire community, and in time an entire ecosystem. You can't pretend that you're just writing code and ignore the people developing and using it. Simply taking the default stance ("liberty is paramount, over and above people's protection from harassment and discrimination") is not apolitical, here or anywhere else. Most people would not like to found a community that winds up going against their ethics on hugely important things related to the community and project itself. If you were an ethical vegan, you'd be unlikely to start a forum for steak-eaters - and if you're ethically pro-social-justice, you're unlikely to start a community based on unrestricted free speech within that community. To do anything else is to explicitly and intentionally support what you believe to be unethical, which is inherently unethical in itself.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

I have no interest in oden, but I think it's good to get those kind of people out of a community as soon as possible, and they can go work on urbit or something instead.

pythia__ 11y ago

I think your objection is less to codes of conduct as such than to their usual contents and the kind of environment they intend to create. You can have a very different code of conduct, e.g., one that goes something like this: 1. Don't be rude. 2. Don't be stupid. 3. Check your identity politics at the door. 4. Listen to the moderators. 5. Do not complain about rules 1-5.

adiabatty 11y ago
Relatedly, there's a Code of Merit that has vaguely similar aims: <http://code-of-merit.org> http://code-of-merit.org>. I don't expect it's everyone's cup of tea (I'm not even sure I'd use it unedited, if at all), but there's work being done in this space that isn't a variant of, say, the Contributor Covenant.