6 ms·

I agree. Don't want this to happen? Easy, don't rent your home out. Renting your home out comes with risks, and you do get rewarded for that risk, but there's s

I agree. Don't want this to happen? Easy, don't rent your home out. Renting your home out comes with risks, and you do get rewarded for that risk, but there's still risks. Nobody is forcing you to rent it out.

sp332 11y ago
You're not required to take every risk with no recourse. A renter might steal from you or leave a spy camera behind, but that's illegal. We could certainly make it illegal to shoot commercial video on someone else's property without their permission.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  Rental agreements that disallow commercial use are a thing. Much simpler and provides civil law recourse for this sort of usage.
- huac 11y ago
  Airbnb prohibits commercial videos/photos without permission, according to the article.
  - sp332 11y ago
    But what recourse does the homeowner have in that case? And being banned from AirBNB is not really a huge deterrent. Making the behavior illegal would give you more options if it happens to you, and might really make someone think twice.
    - rdancer 11y ago
      The contract could have fines for breaking this rule, or the property owner could require guests to agree to a fine in an additional contract on top of the standard terms. But the company has historically never had qualms about screwing their customers over, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        > The contract could have fines for breaking this rule It might have a liquidated damages clause if the use of and stipulated amount of liquidated damages was such as to be found reasonable for the type of breach it covers; otherwise, a "fine" in a contract is generally an unenforceable penalty clause.
      - sandworm101 11y ago
        > The contract could have fines for breaking this rule Small legal point. Contracts are not allowed to impose fines. They can cite liquidated damages (what most people see as a fine) but they have to be rationally related to the damage done by the activity described. They cannot be arbitrary or elevated simply to deter unwanted behavior. Yes, this is and issue when it comes to "parking tickets" on private property. 500$ fee to accommodate a cleaning crew = 0k. 5,000$ fine for pain and suffering caused by naked people in someone's home = not enforceable.
        icebraining 11y ago
        Can't you say that you charge $5000 for commercial use, which the client automatically accepts when they do a commercial activity in the house? After all, isn't that essentially how overdraft fees work? "Oh, you want to withdraw $2 when your balance is $1? That constitutes a request for a loan, for which we charge a $35 fee."
    - jdminhbg 11y ago
      Presumably having broken the terms of the agreement, you'd be able to sue them for any damages.
      - aikah 11y ago
        > Presumably having broken the terms of the agreement, you'd be able to sue them for any damages. The "loophole" is there is no way to sue when the host is illegally subletting his apartment at first place. And a good bunch of Airbnb rentals are straight up illegal. Airbnb is a legal nightmare both for guests and hosts. Most of the time everything goes fine. But when things go wrong Airbnb is effectively of little help. That's the sharing economy, the risk is passed down to the user of these services, just like Uber, Kickstarter and co.
        true_religion 11y ago
        I don't really understand why AirBnB has to be of help in this instance. Someone broke a contract and possibly vandalized a home. The truth of that statement and the penalties involved are enforceable directly through the court system. I am very wary of companies that try to 'help' by requiring 3rd party private arbitration instead of taking it through the established legal system.
    - rs999gti 11y ago
      > Making the behavior illegal Renting out residentially zoned property on AirBNB or shooting porn?
    - ryanlol 11y ago
      Homeowners already have a plenty of recourse in the case of damages. It's called, you know, courts? In the case of non-damages, what recourse do you really need?
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    So someone should make a business of spotting real houses and telling on.
    - huac 11y ago
      yeah, send me a full 3d model of your house and exterior and i'll watch the videos for you ;)
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - vkou 11y ago
    And most landlords and cities prohibit AirBnB-style rentals, but that has never stopped AirBnB.
    - CyberDildonics 11y ago
      Are you sure about that? You seem to missing any sort of a source.
      - vkou 11y ago
        Almost all AirBnB rentals in SF were illegal before 2015. [1] I'm not going to comb through every municipality in North America, but when your company's primary operations are breaking the law in the city you're based in, I think it's safe to say that you aren't particularly keen on following it. There are no particular bylaws governing subletting in tenancy agreements, but almost all landlords forbid it. Mine does. Yours probably does, too. AirBnB has not, and will never do any due diligence in verifying that a renter's tenancy agreement permits short-term subletting - they prefer remaining ignorant of whether or not their units are legal. [1] http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/overview-airbnb-law-san-francisco.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/overview-airbnb-law-s...
      - askldfhjkasfhd 11y ago
        Pretty easy search turned this up. http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/083115/top-cities-where-airbnb-legal-or-illegal.asp http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/083115/top-ci... There also exist services to ensure compliance - http://www.hostcompliance.com/ http://www.hostcompliance.com/ A quick google news search also turns up a lot of articles about cities banning / deciding on the legality of abnb. Additionally, your post was likely downvoted because you dashed off an aggressive, cliched comment that could have been answered with less effort than it took to post to HN.
- waterlesscloud 11y ago
  At least in L.A. it's already illegal to shoot in a rental property (such as a traditionally rented apartment) without the property owner's permission. Still happens multiple times every day. It's more a result of much smaller video crews than anything else these days. Technically a lot of these youtube/podcaster people are in violation of local laws.
  - edvinbesic 11y ago
    > Technically a lot of these youtube/podcaster people are in violation of local laws. Somehow I doubt that. By that same law then a family recording themselves on Christmas eve and putting the video on YouTube for their friends and family to see are also violating the same law.
    - wasjosh 11y ago
      That most generally wouldn't be considered a commercial video shoot.
- ryguytilidie 11y ago
  But why? Seriously, I don't see why this is an issue. If I rent out my home and a couple stays there. I imagine some sex may happen there. I wouldn't care. If I rent out my home and some people have sex on camera there, and the house is returned to me in the same state, I don't care. Why do you believe this requires a law...?
  - ChrisBland 11y ago
    I think you are being too specific in what you are saying is an issue. If you rent out your house on AirBnB, you are not expecting commercial business to be done in your home. Would you be upset if someone rented your home on AirBnB and then ran a small sweatshop out of it? What if they used it as a temporary slaughter house for animals? The base fact is they used a private property for commercial purposes when they were not legally allowed to do so. To me the general issue is private use vs commercial use.
    - sandworm101 11y ago
      Or if an attorney rented the home for a week to meet with a client. Or even to shelter a client (think domestic violence) or shield their movements from reporters (celebs/royalty). That happens all the time, but remains commercial activity in a rented unit.
    - ryanlol 11y ago
      Why would any of those things be a problem as long as the house is either properly cleaned afterwards or the cleaning fees are paid.
      - MichaelBurge 11y ago
        Zoning regulations have been around for nearly a century. They caused a ruckus when they first appeared("Why can the government limit what I do with my personal property?"), but their legality is well-established by the Supreme Court. Violations of these sort(zoning, not paying property taxes, etc.) attach liens to the property, not the owner or renter. So it can be hard to dodge the consequences if you get fined. Granted, this argument doesn't apply in Houston, Texas which doesn't have zoning laws. So if the comment you're responding to truly believes his argument, he'd be forced to accept the practice in Houston.
cleaver 11y ago
I'm trying to frame this as less of a problem and more of an opportunity. Sadly, pornbnb.com is already registered. :(
micwawa 11y ago
Tell Mrs. Patmore that.
hipsterrific 11y ago
That's a straw man. While no one is forcing me to rent it out, it's common courtesy to let your landlord know of any activities you wish to pursue. After all, it's not your property you're staying in, there's a reason why you're renting it. After all, people rent out their homes on AirBnB for leisure. What porn film makers are doing is capitalizing on AirBnB rentals by circumventing not only regulations (not a fan of but sometimes it's necessary) but they're making a profit from your property. Not to mention the fact that they left this person's house a total mess which is already a dick move on the film makers part.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  "Common courtesy" and "contracts" don't belong in the same conversation. It's a recipe for having people take advantage.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > What porn film makers are doing is capitalizing on AirBnB rentals by circumventing not only regulations (not a fan of but sometimes it's necessary) but they're making a profit from your property. What many people renting property out on AirBnB are doing is not only circumventing regulation (regarding, e.g., short-term occupancy rentals) and rental contract provisions (with their own landlords), but also making a profit from someone else's property. AirBnB has largely grown, and knowingly leverages (with deliberate structure to try to keep the legal risks that result on other parties in the transaction), exactly this kind of evasion of regulatory and contract restriction to make profit off of other people's property. So, while its been well-known to occur on the side of the transaction renting-out property via AirBnB, it shouldn't be too surprising that it happens on the other side of the transaction as well.
- stcredzero 11y ago
  > That's a straw man. That's not a straw man. It is a rather cavalier and entitled attitude, however, and I agree with you that it should be common courtesy. I have noticed a common attitude in the technology sector and amongst gamers, that if you can get away with it, then you are effectively allowed to do it, and if you're "smart," you'll heartlessly exploit all such opportunities that come your way. (Note that I am in the technology sector and would be called a "gamer" by many.) Underlying such an attitude is the unspoken belief that being "smart" makes one superior to the average person and therefore somehow entitles one to such exploitation. My opinion is that people who express such attitudes are scum who will stab you in the back if the reward is great enough.

sp332 11y ago

You're not required to take every risk with no recourse. A renter might steal from you or leave a spy camera behind, but that's illegal. We could certainly make it illegal to shoot commercial video on someone else's property without their permission.

fweespeech 11y ago
Rental agreements that disallow commercial use are a thing. Much simpler and provides civil law recourse for this sort of usage.
huac 11y ago
Airbnb prohibits commercial videos/photos without permission, according to the article.
- sp332 11y ago
  But what recourse does the homeowner have in that case? And being banned from AirBNB is not really a huge deterrent. Making the behavior illegal would give you more options if it happens to you, and might really make someone think twice.
  - rdancer 11y ago
    The contract could have fines for breaking this rule, or the property owner could require guests to agree to a fine in an additional contract on top of the standard terms. But the company has historically never had qualms about screwing their customers over, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > The contract could have fines for breaking this rule It might have a liquidated damages clause if the use of and stipulated amount of liquidated damages was such as to be found reasonable for the type of breach it covers; otherwise, a "fine" in a contract is generally an unenforceable penalty clause.
    - sandworm101 11y ago
      > The contract could have fines for breaking this rule Small legal point. Contracts are not allowed to impose fines. They can cite liquidated damages (what most people see as a fine) but they have to be rationally related to the damage done by the activity described. They cannot be arbitrary or elevated simply to deter unwanted behavior. Yes, this is and issue when it comes to "parking tickets" on private property. 500$ fee to accommodate a cleaning crew = 0k. 5,000$ fine for pain and suffering caused by naked people in someone's home = not enforceable.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Can't you say that you charge $5000 for commercial use, which the client automatically accepts when they do a commercial activity in the house? After all, isn't that essentially how overdraft fees work? "Oh, you want to withdraw $2 when your balance is $1? That constitutes a request for a loan, for which we charge a $35 fee."
  - jdminhbg 11y ago
    Presumably having broken the terms of the agreement, you'd be able to sue them for any damages.
    - aikah 11y ago
      > Presumably having broken the terms of the agreement, you'd be able to sue them for any damages. The "loophole" is there is no way to sue when the host is illegally subletting his apartment at first place. And a good bunch of Airbnb rentals are straight up illegal. Airbnb is a legal nightmare both for guests and hosts. Most of the time everything goes fine. But when things go wrong Airbnb is effectively of little help. That's the sharing economy, the risk is passed down to the user of these services, just like Uber, Kickstarter and co.
      - true_religion 11y ago
        I don't really understand why AirBnB has to be of help in this instance. Someone broke a contract and possibly vandalized a home. The truth of that statement and the penalties involved are enforceable directly through the court system. I am very wary of companies that try to 'help' by requiring 3rd party private arbitration instead of taking it through the established legal system.
  - rs999gti 11y ago
    > Making the behavior illegal Renting out residentially zoned property on AirBNB or shooting porn?
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    Homeowners already have a plenty of recourse in the case of damages. It's called, you know, courts? In the case of non-damages, what recourse do you really need?
- agumonkey 11y ago
  So someone should make a business of spotting real houses and telling on.
  - huac 11y ago
    yeah, send me a full 3d model of your house and exterior and i'll watch the videos for you ;)
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- vkou 11y ago
  And most landlords and cities prohibit AirBnB-style rentals, but that has never stopped AirBnB.
  - CyberDildonics 11y ago
    Are you sure about that? You seem to missing any sort of a source.
    - vkou 11y ago
      Almost all AirBnB rentals in SF were illegal before 2015. [1] I'm not going to comb through every municipality in North America, but when your company's primary operations are breaking the law in the city you're based in, I think it's safe to say that you aren't particularly keen on following it. There are no particular bylaws governing subletting in tenancy agreements, but almost all landlords forbid it. Mine does. Yours probably does, too. AirBnB has not, and will never do any due diligence in verifying that a renter's tenancy agreement permits short-term subletting - they prefer remaining ignorant of whether or not their units are legal. [1] http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/overview-airbnb-law-san-francisco.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/overview-airbnb-law-s...
    - askldfhjkasfhd 11y ago
      Pretty easy search turned this up. http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/083115/top-cities-where-airbnb-legal-or-illegal.asp http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/083115/top-ci... There also exist services to ensure compliance - http://www.hostcompliance.com/ http://www.hostcompliance.com/ A quick google news search also turns up a lot of articles about cities banning / deciding on the legality of abnb. Additionally, your post was likely downvoted because you dashed off an aggressive, cliched comment that could have been answered with less effort than it took to post to HN.
waterlesscloud 11y ago
At least in L.A. it's already illegal to shoot in a rental property (such as a traditionally rented apartment) without the property owner's permission. Still happens multiple times every day. It's more a result of much smaller video crews than anything else these days. Technically a lot of these youtube/podcaster people are in violation of local laws.
- edvinbesic 11y ago
  > Technically a lot of these youtube/podcaster people are in violation of local laws. Somehow I doubt that. By that same law then a family recording themselves on Christmas eve and putting the video on YouTube for their friends and family to see are also violating the same law.
  - wasjosh 11y ago
    That most generally wouldn't be considered a commercial video shoot.
ryguytilidie 11y ago
But why? Seriously, I don't see why this is an issue. If I rent out my home and a couple stays there. I imagine some sex may happen there. I wouldn't care. If I rent out my home and some people have sex on camera there, and the house is returned to me in the same state, I don't care. Why do you believe this requires a law...?
- ChrisBland 11y ago
  I think you are being too specific in what you are saying is an issue. If you rent out your house on AirBnB, you are not expecting commercial business to be done in your home. Would you be upset if someone rented your home on AirBnB and then ran a small sweatshop out of it? What if they used it as a temporary slaughter house for animals? The base fact is they used a private property for commercial purposes when they were not legally allowed to do so. To me the general issue is private use vs commercial use.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    Or if an attorney rented the home for a week to meet with a client. Or even to shelter a client (think domestic violence) or shield their movements from reporters (celebs/royalty). That happens all the time, but remains commercial activity in a rented unit.
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    Why would any of those things be a problem as long as the house is either properly cleaned afterwards or the cleaning fees are paid.
    - MichaelBurge 11y ago
      Zoning regulations have been around for nearly a century. They caused a ruckus when they first appeared("Why can the government limit what I do with my personal property?"), but their legality is well-established by the Supreme Court. Violations of these sort(zoning, not paying property taxes, etc.) attach liens to the property, not the owner or renter. So it can be hard to dodge the consequences if you get fined. Granted, this argument doesn't apply in Houston, Texas which doesn't have zoning laws. So if the comment you're responding to truly believes his argument, he'd be forced to accept the practice in Houston.

cleaver 11y ago

I'm trying to frame this as less of a problem and more of an opportunity. Sadly, pornbnb.com is already registered. :(

micwawa 11y ago

Tell Mrs. Patmore that.

hipsterrific 11y ago

That's a straw man. While no one is forcing me to rent it out, it's common courtesy to let your landlord know of any activities you wish to pursue. After all, it's not your property you're staying in, there's a reason why you're renting it. After all, people rent out their homes on AirBnB for leisure. What porn film makers are doing is capitalizing on AirBnB rentals by circumventing not only regulations (not a fan of but sometimes it's necessary) but they're making a profit from your property. Not to mention the fact that they left this person's house a total mess which is already a dick move on the film makers part.

oldmanjay 11y ago
"Common courtesy" and "contracts" don't belong in the same conversation. It's a recipe for having people take advantage.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> What porn film makers are doing is capitalizing on AirBnB rentals by circumventing not only regulations (not a fan of but sometimes it's necessary) but they're making a profit from your property. What many people renting property out on AirBnB are doing is not only circumventing regulation (regarding, e.g., short-term occupancy rentals) and rental contract provisions (with their own landlords), but also making a profit from someone else's property. AirBnB has largely grown, and knowingly leverages (with deliberate structure to try to keep the legal risks that result on other parties in the transaction), exactly this kind of evasion of regulatory and contract restriction to make profit off of other people's property. So, while its been well-known to occur on the side of the transaction renting-out property via AirBnB, it shouldn't be too surprising that it happens on the other side of the transaction as well.
stcredzero 11y ago
> That's a straw man. That's not a straw man. It is a rather cavalier and entitled attitude, however, and I agree with you that it should be common courtesy. I have noticed a common attitude in the technology sector and amongst gamers, that if you can get away with it, then you are effectively allowed to do it, and if you're "smart," you'll heartlessly exploit all such opportunities that come your way. (Note that I am in the technology sector and would be called a "gamer" by many.) Underlying such an attitude is the unspoken belief that being "smart" makes one superior to the average person and therefore somehow entitles one to such exploitation. My opinion is that people who express such attitudes are scum who will stab you in the back if the reward is great enough.