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If you don't have braces like in Python, then you always have the same visual feedback don't you? If you were to add braces to Python and auto-indent you'd end

If you don't have braces like in Python, then you always have the same visual feedback don't you? If you were to add braces to Python and auto-indent you'd end up with the same look as you would with python with only whitespace, only now there are superfluous brackets.

nisse72 11y ago
Rearranging code, refactoring, moving blocks, inserting conditionals etc would be easier and could be auto-indented if there were braces. Instead you need to carefully ensure that everything aligns correctly with the intended meaning at the new location. Also, a closing brace is a nice signal to the editor that it's time to "outdent". Finally, people seem to forget that python already has an opening brace, except it's spelled ':'. So why no closing brace to match? This seems inconsistent to me.
- acdha 11y ago
  You don't need advanced auto-indenting when the existing code is already correctly indented. Any decent programmers editor will automatically change the starting indentation point when you paste a block. Your other points could be debated but really, is coding so keyboard-limited that saving a single keystroke is a major issue? Python has focused on comprehensibility, which I think is the right balance given how frequently people need to understand code versus write it.
  - nisse72 11y ago
    If you move a block of code to a place just after e.g. a loop, it isn't clear whether it should be inside or outside the loop, your editor cannot guess this. You still need to tell it at what level the new code should be inserted. And if the end of the loop happens to be nested further, the ambiguity is exacerbated. I switch between C and Python quite frequently. With C, I just type the code, and let my editor manage the indentation, which it can do perfectly without any help from me. With Python, I find that I spend a lot more time thinking about the formatting itself, especially at the end of block, because it's up to me to get it right. I fail to see how the _lack_ of a closing brace _improves_ comprehensibility. What Python has done is removed a helpful indicator, and put more of the responsibility on the programmer. I'm happy to type that extra character in C, because it helps lower my cognitive workload so I can focus more on the problem I'm trying to solve. The closing brace doesn't mean anarchy, or make the code harder to understand later.
    - acdha 11y ago
      > If you move a block of code to a place just after e.g. a loop, it isn't clear whether it should be inside or outside the loop, your editor cannot guess this. You still need to tell it at what level the new code should be inserted. And if the end of the loop happens to be nested further, the ambiguity is exacerbated. 1. Move the cursor to wherever you want to put the block 2. Hit paste 3. Your editor adjusts the indentation so the entire pasted block is inserted as if you just keyed it in It's simple and reliable and as a bonus it's portable across any language where the code is indented correctly. > The closing brace doesn't mean anarchy, or make the code harder to understand later. It's true that well-written C code can be almost exactly the same but the difference is that the world is full of sloppy C code where someone hammered out a bunch of changes, decided it was too much work to format it so the visual display matched the actual parsed structure, and left a trap for the next developer who touches that code. Yes, hopefully they'll review & test carefully but, as with e.g. memory management, we have decades of proof that depending on programmers to consistently follow desirable practice is a losing battle unless it's enforced by tools. The point isn't that braces are bad and that whitespace is good but that Python will refuse to execute one class of sloppy code. Imagine if GCC made this flag mandatory or Clang refused to compile anything which didn't pass cleanly through clang-tidy – the benefit wouldn't be due to the braces but from the fact that one category of error would simply no longer be possible and every C developer on the planet would spend less time on cosmetic differences when reading other people's code.
      - nisse72 11y ago
        I hear what you are saying, and really I don't mind that the formatting is required by the language, I'm not arguing against that. But... we could have had both! Absolutely require the formatting, but also keep the magic symbols that help your tools help you!

nisse72 11y ago

Rearranging code, refactoring, moving blocks, inserting conditionals etc would be easier and could be auto-indented if there were braces. Instead you need to carefully ensure that everything aligns correctly with the intended meaning at the new location. Also, a closing brace is a nice signal to the editor that it's time to "outdent". Finally, people seem to forget that python already has an opening brace, except it's spelled ':'. So why no closing brace to match? This seems inconsistent to me.

acdha 11y ago
You don't need advanced auto-indenting when the existing code is already correctly indented. Any decent programmers editor will automatically change the starting indentation point when you paste a block. Your other points could be debated but really, is coding so keyboard-limited that saving a single keystroke is a major issue? Python has focused on comprehensibility, which I think is the right balance given how frequently people need to understand code versus write it.
- nisse72 11y ago
  If you move a block of code to a place just after e.g. a loop, it isn't clear whether it should be inside or outside the loop, your editor cannot guess this. You still need to tell it at what level the new code should be inserted. And if the end of the loop happens to be nested further, the ambiguity is exacerbated. I switch between C and Python quite frequently. With C, I just type the code, and let my editor manage the indentation, which it can do perfectly without any help from me. With Python, I find that I spend a lot more time thinking about the formatting itself, especially at the end of block, because it's up to me to get it right. I fail to see how the _lack_ of a closing brace _improves_ comprehensibility. What Python has done is removed a helpful indicator, and put more of the responsibility on the programmer. I'm happy to type that extra character in C, because it helps lower my cognitive workload so I can focus more on the problem I'm trying to solve. The closing brace doesn't mean anarchy, or make the code harder to understand later.
  - acdha 11y ago
    > If you move a block of code to a place just after e.g. a loop, it isn't clear whether it should be inside or outside the loop, your editor cannot guess this. You still need to tell it at what level the new code should be inserted. And if the end of the loop happens to be nested further, the ambiguity is exacerbated. 1. Move the cursor to wherever you want to put the block 2. Hit paste 3. Your editor adjusts the indentation so the entire pasted block is inserted as if you just keyed it in It's simple and reliable and as a bonus it's portable across any language where the code is indented correctly. > The closing brace doesn't mean anarchy, or make the code harder to understand later. It's true that well-written C code can be almost exactly the same but the difference is that the world is full of sloppy C code where someone hammered out a bunch of changes, decided it was too much work to format it so the visual display matched the actual parsed structure, and left a trap for the next developer who touches that code. Yes, hopefully they'll review & test carefully but, as with e.g. memory management, we have decades of proof that depending on programmers to consistently follow desirable practice is a losing battle unless it's enforced by tools. The point isn't that braces are bad and that whitespace is good but that Python will refuse to execute one class of sloppy code. Imagine if GCC made this flag mandatory or Clang refused to compile anything which didn't pass cleanly through clang-tidy – the benefit wouldn't be due to the braces but from the fact that one category of error would simply no longer be possible and every C developer on the planet would spend less time on cosmetic differences when reading other people's code.
    - nisse72 11y ago
      I hear what you are saying, and really I don't mind that the formatting is required by the language, I'm not arguing against that. But... we could have had both! Absolutely require the formatting, but also keep the magic symbols that help your tools help you!