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The advice on job hunting is the same kind of vague, shotgun style hunt with the word "meetup" thrown in. This is a terrible way to find a job you love. You mig

The advice on job hunting is the same kind of vague, shotgun style hunt with the word "meetup" thrown in. This is a terrible way to find a job you love. You might get lucky, but there is a better way. Pick where you want to work and then be good enough to work there. I'm a strong believer in the philosophy that you need to walk in the door knowing you want to work somewhere. If you don't know already then you've done insufficient research or are insufficiently motivated and it will show. Starting right out of college I picked where I wanted to work first and then started making the connections to make that happen. I always volunteer to work for free prior to getting hired. Why? because a work-to-hire internship, no matter your level of experience, is better for both you and the company. It's especially good if you don't fit the traditional resume of someone in the role for which you're applying. This works especially well with startups since their hiring practices are flexible and they are cash conscious. Four out of my last 5 jobs have been landed like this, the other I was recruited. You should be excited about the specific company you're talking to. You should want them to succeed from day one. This will make you stand out from the crowd of "job seekers." You're not looking for a job, you want this job and you're ready to buy.

tacos 11y ago
Everything about this comment is great. Except the "volunteer to work for free" part which is absolutely horrible advice. Part of "walking in the door knowing what you want... and owning it" includes understanding your worth to the company. A company must also recognize your worth UP FRONT. Unpaid internships vary from corrupt to demoralizing. At best they set the wrong tone. Don't fall into that trap.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  In addition, most unpaid internships are illegal in the United States (http://www.forbes.com/sites/theyec/2013/04/19/6-legal-requirements-for-unpaid-internship-programs/#2310e79049ab http://www.forbes.com/sites/theyec/2013/04/19/6-legal-requir...) Many companies, however, hire paid interns on a "try before you buy" basis. Always go for at least one paid internship while in college. Not only do you get to show off your chops to potential employers, it also looks great on your resume for other potential employers down the road.
- chrisbennet 11y ago
  Yes, when you are initially paid very little, your employer rarely re-evaluates your actual value. In other words if you were "cheap" to start with, you will be seen as worth less going forward. You're initial salary negotiation is the most important; after that you will be lucky to get small raises and never to market value. One the quirks of human nature that if you give the employer/customer/client a "deal" up front, when you switch to charging them market price, they feel ripped off.
  - GFischer 11y ago
    Unfortunately, that is true. I've seen a case where, to go up the ladder at a certain company, the best way was to quit, then work somewhere else for a time, then apply for the position you wanted to get initially... (no need for having improved any skills, external hires are just evaluated differently)
gclaramunt 11y ago
Reminds me of the approach of http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/ http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/ (if you ignore the 90' web style) is pretty interesting: find out where you want to wokr find out the problems they have show them you can solve the problems profitably
aturek 11y ago
There's a lot more to a company than what it sells. Saying "I want to work here" without knowing the people there, for me, would be a non-starter. What you're recommending (doing the background research on companies) is useful, but the worst jobs I've had have been the ones where I didn't do a good job interviewing my coworkers, and was just excited about the product, or the theoretical culture.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  There's a lot of companies that you've never even heard of that are great places to work. You haven't heard of them because they don't make consumer products and you're never been in the market for ${business solution}. Only going for the places you know about or have heard of is selling yourself short. There is also good technical roles in some otherwise non technical companies.
tlogan 11y ago
Horrible advice. The main problem is that it is impossible to understand the company and how it operates from outside. And larger companies are divided into organizations and each organization is quite different. Of course, it is very important to investigate the company and learn as much as you want about it but be aware that information you gather might not be correct and up to date: there will always large number of unknown unknowns. The other problem is that "always volunteer to work for free prior to getting hire" is that you are starting your negotiation from very very low anchor. In short, do not think as buyer (I want to work here), you need to think as salesman (I want to sell myself).
xiphias 11y ago
I tried this approach with a perfect resume and qualifications and got rejected after a long interview process. The problem is: there are always unknown elements and biases in the process, and people were working differently than what I was used to. Still, lot of time went away for me, because I didn't want to go to other places. I believe this is good advice, but you still need multiple options, which means it's better to prepare but spare your own time: make sure the company invests in you as much as you do in the company at each step (even in the beginning...a cover letter is OK, but nothing more, like free work).
st3v3r 11y ago
"I always volunteer to work for free prior to getting hired." This sounds like a perfect way to devalue yourself to any potential employer.
- p4wnc6 11y ago
  But offering to do a short working internship, which is paid at a competitive rate that would translate to the salary you are seeking, is reasonable. That way you are compensated for the effort you provide to assist the hiring company in figuring out if they want to work with you, and if so, at what price they are willing to agree to it.
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    It can be, but that gets pretty close to contract-to-hire, which is rife for abuse from the company.
    - p4wnc6 11y ago
      When I say short, I mean 1 week, maybe 2 weeks tops. Few places that want the scammy sort of contract-to-hire are going to bother with someone who expects to be paid their regular wage for a one-to-two-week time period. Anything longer than 2 weeks, and I'd expect full benefits, possibly a signing bonus, and I would speak at length before hand to get specifics on exactly how I will be evaluated and which criteria will be used for determining if a permanent offer will be made. This scares away most crappy companies and acts as a good filter to find good employers.
- iandanforth 11y ago
  I'll respond to a few points here: 1. I've never had a problem getting the salary that I wanted and have had a steadily increasing market-rate developer salary at each job. 2. I've only ever managed to actually work for free once, the other times they insisted on paying a base hourly, intern wage. 3. If you go in thinking this is where you want to work, but are wrong because it's "impossible to understand the company and how it operates from outside," it's much less of a hassle to leave during a trial period. Finally I think there is a lot of posturing around negotiating positions and "strength." That's bs. If you're looking to get the highest salary you can, fine, but if you're looking for a job that you love I can only relate that this technique has worked again and again for me and no theoretical critiques of negotiating strategy can change that.
goldbrick 11y ago
Comically absurd. Everything you've suggested seems specifically chosen to put you in the worst negotiating position possible. "The winner of any negotiation is the one who has least to lose" Why shouldn't the company have to prove they are good enough for you to give them your life? This isn't a romance novel, it's business.

tacos 11y ago

Everything about this comment is great. Except the "volunteer to work for free" part which is absolutely horrible advice. Part of "walking in the door knowing what you want... and owning it" includes understanding your worth to the company. A company must also recognize your worth UP FRONT. Unpaid internships vary from corrupt to demoralizing. At best they set the wrong tone. Don't fall into that trap.

nommm-nommm 11y ago
In addition, most unpaid internships are illegal in the United States (http://www.forbes.com/sites/theyec/2013/04/19/6-legal-requirements-for-unpaid-internship-programs/#2310e79049ab http://www.forbes.com/sites/theyec/2013/04/19/6-legal-requir...) Many companies, however, hire paid interns on a "try before you buy" basis. Always go for at least one paid internship while in college. Not only do you get to show off your chops to potential employers, it also looks great on your resume for other potential employers down the road.
chrisbennet 11y ago
Yes, when you are initially paid very little, your employer rarely re-evaluates your actual value. In other words if you were "cheap" to start with, you will be seen as worth less going forward. You're initial salary negotiation is the most important; after that you will be lucky to get small raises and never to market value. One the quirks of human nature that if you give the employer/customer/client a "deal" up front, when you switch to charging them market price, they feel ripped off.
- GFischer 11y ago
  Unfortunately, that is true. I've seen a case where, to go up the ladder at a certain company, the best way was to quit, then work somewhere else for a time, then apply for the position you wanted to get initially... (no need for having improved any skills, external hires are just evaluated differently)

gclaramunt 11y ago

Reminds me of the approach of http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/ http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/ (if you ignore the 90' web style) is pretty interesting: find out where you want to wokr find out the problems they have show them you can solve the problems profitably

aturek 11y ago

There's a lot more to a company than what it sells. Saying "I want to work here" without knowing the people there, for me, would be a non-starter. What you're recommending (doing the background research on companies) is useful, but the worst jobs I've had have been the ones where I didn't do a good job interviewing my coworkers, and was just excited about the product, or the theoretical culture.

nommm-nommm 11y ago
There's a lot of companies that you've never even heard of that are great places to work. You haven't heard of them because they don't make consumer products and you're never been in the market for ${business solution}. Only going for the places you know about or have heard of is selling yourself short. There is also good technical roles in some otherwise non technical companies.

tlogan 11y ago

Horrible advice. The main problem is that it is impossible to understand the company and how it operates from outside. And larger companies are divided into organizations and each organization is quite different. Of course, it is very important to investigate the company and learn as much as you want about it but be aware that information you gather might not be correct and up to date: there will always large number of unknown unknowns. The other problem is that "always volunteer to work for free prior to getting hire" is that you are starting your negotiation from very very low anchor. In short, do not think as buyer (I want to work here), you need to think as salesman (I want to sell myself).

xiphias 11y ago

I tried this approach with a perfect resume and qualifications and got rejected after a long interview process. The problem is: there are always unknown elements and biases in the process, and people were working differently than what I was used to. Still, lot of time went away for me, because I didn't want to go to other places. I believe this is good advice, but you still need multiple options, which means it's better to prepare but spare your own time: make sure the company invests in you as much as you do in the company at each step (even in the beginning...a cover letter is OK, but nothing more, like free work).

st3v3r 11y ago

"I always volunteer to work for free prior to getting hired." This sounds like a perfect way to devalue yourself to any potential employer.

p4wnc6 11y ago
But offering to do a short working internship, which is paid at a competitive rate that would translate to the salary you are seeking, is reasonable. That way you are compensated for the effort you provide to assist the hiring company in figuring out if they want to work with you, and if so, at what price they are willing to agree to it.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  It can be, but that gets pretty close to contract-to-hire, which is rife for abuse from the company.
  - p4wnc6 11y ago
    When I say short, I mean 1 week, maybe 2 weeks tops. Few places that want the scammy sort of contract-to-hire are going to bother with someone who expects to be paid their regular wage for a one-to-two-week time period. Anything longer than 2 weeks, and I'd expect full benefits, possibly a signing bonus, and I would speak at length before hand to get specifics on exactly how I will be evaluated and which criteria will be used for determining if a permanent offer will be made. This scares away most crappy companies and acts as a good filter to find good employers.
iandanforth 11y ago
I'll respond to a few points here: 1. I've never had a problem getting the salary that I wanted and have had a steadily increasing market-rate developer salary at each job. 2. I've only ever managed to actually work for free once, the other times they insisted on paying a base hourly, intern wage. 3. If you go in thinking this is where you want to work, but are wrong because it's "impossible to understand the company and how it operates from outside," it's much less of a hassle to leave during a trial period. Finally I think there is a lot of posturing around negotiating positions and "strength." That's bs. If you're looking to get the highest salary you can, fine, but if you're looking for a job that you love I can only relate that this technique has worked again and again for me and no theoretical critiques of negotiating strategy can change that.

goldbrick 11y ago

Comically absurd. Everything you've suggested seems specifically chosen to put you in the worst negotiating position possible. "The winner of any negotiation is the one who has least to lose" Why shouldn't the company have to prove they are good enough for you to give them your life? This isn't a romance novel, it's business.