5 ms·

> Fake the confidence here. If they say, “What are your salary requirements?” You say, “Well, it’s really too early to talk about salary. I just really want to

by kzhahou 11y ago

> Fake the confidence here. If they say, “What are your salary requirements?” You say, “Well, it’s really too early to talk about salary. I just really want to make sure that we’re a great fit for each other. If we’re a great fit for each other, we can work something out. If we’re not a great fit for each other, it doesn’t matter. We shouldn’t work together no matter what the numbers are.” Whatever you need to say, just do not answer the salary question until you’re actually negotiating. No need to dance around it so much. Don't worry about how to phrase it! Just tell the recruiter, "No I'm not going to discuss salary until we're actually negotiating." There's really ZERO need to dress it up. They know the game. Just stand your ground, and say "no", "no thanks", "really no", "not yet"... until they say the team wants to move forward with an offer. NOW we can discuss. I'm saying this because engineers are already nervous about how to negotiate the process, and there's no need to make it even more stressful by worrying about how to delicately phrase things.

atom-morgan 11y ago
> They know the game. They know the game but it doesn't mean they'll play accordingly. I've had plenty of recruiters tell me they can't realistically move forward unless I give them a number and they get aggressive about it. I don't but I imagine most do. So in a way, I can see why he suggests dancing around the topic.
- emidln 11y ago
  I've told recruiters to not send resumes for candidates who wanted over $X comp. If the person won't let them know a ballpark up front, I'd have never seen the person. Unfortunately, I don't have enough hours in the day to interview good candidates who might or might not be willing to come down on my max comp.
  - waterlesscloud 11y ago
    So then there is no shortage of good developers.
  - kzhahou 11y ago
    Does it really happen so often that there's someone you'd hire, but they want more than your absolute max? In my experience, just FINDING good people is 95% of the challenge -- compensation is not a common-blocker to make it a first-round filter. By having your recruiter filter resumes by comp, it may be that they're accidentally throwing out just those few resumes that were actually the strongest! Maybe you could have negotiated to a good number for both of you.
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    Why don't you instruct the recruiter to come out and say what your range is? That way you avoid the problem.
dotBen 11y ago
It really depends on what kind of company you are negotiating with. Companies of a certain size will have salary bands and they can't pay above a certain amount otherwise they risk salary imbalances within teams. Small startups may be playing with their runway and so need to know where you stand in order to know whether your salary expectations will impact the runway too greatly. You might be able to play this game if you are personally being recruited for something specific and/or working with the founder or a senior enough person in a large co who can break you out of the bands. But otherwise you risk the recruiter simply not qualifying you for consideration. (I've hired many, many engineers in my career)
- ryandrake 11y ago
  I've run into this argument in the past. It also happens when you're already on the job. Company: "We can't possibly give you a raise! 'The book' says we can only pay you this much and no more." Me: Uhh, ok... [A few months later] Me: Well, bye! Company: OMFG WHAT COULD WE HAVE DONE TO RETAIN YOU???
  - scruple 11y ago
    > 'The book' says Hah! I just had this happen to me last month. My wife accepted a position (at her dream company) on the other side of the state. That means we're no-questions-asked packing up, selling our home, and moving for this opportunity. I told my manager the news and gave him the choice: The company can transition me to full-time remote or they can have my resignation (which I had typed, printed, signed, and brought with me). So, that afternoon, I'm in the HR managers office. They (HR, not my manager -- he is an amazing, caring, understanding person who laughs at this story harder than I do) literally pulled "The Book" out and pointed to some section of text while stating, "ENGINEERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK REMOTELY!" at me. I'm still there, we made it work, but it took almost more effort than it was worth.
    - bigtex 11y ago
      The book is definitely not based on the local job market. I get emails from recruiters and have a sense of what the proper salary range is for my position. The book is usually on the bottom of that range.
henrik_w 11y ago
This can work in the opposite direction too: the salary they will offer is below what you want, so you waste a ton of time going through all the interviews etc only to find out that there is no way you'll take what they offer. I don't know what the best solution to this problem is though.

by kzhahou 11y ago

atom-morgan 11y ago

> They know the game. They know the game but it doesn't mean they'll play accordingly. I've had plenty of recruiters tell me they can't realistically move forward unless I give them a number and they get aggressive about it. I don't but I imagine most do. So in a way, I can see why he suggests dancing around the topic.

emidln 11y ago
I've told recruiters to not send resumes for candidates who wanted over $X comp. If the person won't let them know a ballpark up front, I'd have never seen the person. Unfortunately, I don't have enough hours in the day to interview good candidates who might or might not be willing to come down on my max comp.
- waterlesscloud 11y ago
  So then there is no shortage of good developers.
- kzhahou 11y ago
  Does it really happen so often that there's someone you'd hire, but they want more than your absolute max? In my experience, just FINDING good people is 95% of the challenge -- compensation is not a common-blocker to make it a first-round filter. By having your recruiter filter resumes by comp, it may be that they're accidentally throwing out just those few resumes that were actually the strongest! Maybe you could have negotiated to a good number for both of you.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Why don't you instruct the recruiter to come out and say what your range is? That way you avoid the problem.

dotBen 11y ago

It really depends on what kind of company you are negotiating with. Companies of a certain size will have salary bands and they can't pay above a certain amount otherwise they risk salary imbalances within teams. Small startups may be playing with their runway and so need to know where you stand in order to know whether your salary expectations will impact the runway too greatly. You might be able to play this game if you are personally being recruited for something specific and/or working with the founder or a senior enough person in a large co who can break you out of the bands. But otherwise you risk the recruiter simply not qualifying you for consideration. (I've hired many, many engineers in my career)

ryandrake 11y ago
I've run into this argument in the past. It also happens when you're already on the job. Company: "We can't possibly give you a raise! 'The book' says we can only pay you this much and no more." Me: Uhh, ok... [A few months later] Me: Well, bye! Company: OMFG WHAT COULD WE HAVE DONE TO RETAIN YOU???
- scruple 11y ago
  > 'The book' says Hah! I just had this happen to me last month. My wife accepted a position (at her dream company) on the other side of the state. That means we're no-questions-asked packing up, selling our home, and moving for this opportunity. I told my manager the news and gave him the choice: The company can transition me to full-time remote or they can have my resignation (which I had typed, printed, signed, and brought with me). So, that afternoon, I'm in the HR managers office. They (HR, not my manager -- he is an amazing, caring, understanding person who laughs at this story harder than I do) literally pulled "The Book" out and pointed to some section of text while stating, "ENGINEERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK REMOTELY!" at me. I'm still there, we made it work, but it took almost more effort than it was worth.
  - bigtex 11y ago
    The book is definitely not based on the local job market. I get emails from recruiters and have a sense of what the proper salary range is for my position. The book is usually on the bottom of that range.

henrik_w 11y ago

This can work in the opposite direction too: the salary they will offer is below what you want, so you waste a ton of time going through all the interviews etc only to find out that there is no way you'll take what they offer. I don't know what the best solution to this problem is though.