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I don't get it. If the job you're applying for relies heavily on data structures and algorithms, why can't they ask this? If you're stepping up from writing we

I don't get it. If the job you're applying for relies heavily on data structures and algorithms, why can't they ask this? If you're stepping up from writing web apps, you should have done some homework first.

vonmoltke 11y ago
The problem is, most don't. If you have been writing web apps for five years and are interviewing for another job doing the same, it is highly unlikely that anything the interviewer asks that you have not already been dealing with on a daily basis is relevant to your actual ability to do the job.
Mc_Big_G 11y ago
Web development relies heavily on data structures and algorithms?
- freyr 11y ago
  > "If the job you're applying for relies heavily on data structures and algorithms" JustSomeNobody figured that if the interviewer is quizzing you on data structures and algorithms, surely the job you're applying for must rely on such knowledge. If only.
  - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    No, I assume you did your homework and found out that the company in fact DOES rely heavily on data structure and algorithms. If the job is hiring for just another web/CRUD dev, then sure, asking CS questions might be out of place.
    - phil21 11y ago
      Which is exactly what everyone gets upset about... No one cares if you get asked relevant questions for the job at hand. If they need a highly skilled algorithm guy (hint: this is extremely exceedingly rare) then by all means. The vast majority simply ask these questions for their own ego boost (lulz look at that idiot who can't even do basic CS101! good thing we're so smart!), as well as a means for social signaling that you came from the right background. It's basically a huge waste of time and mental energy for what amounts to mental masturbation from the interviewers.
seiji 11y ago
The problem is: interviews shouldn't be a mini-GCSE. If I have 20 years of experience and you want to ask me about something I did 10 years ago, I probably can't reproduce it on the spot, but does that mean I'm incompetent? The idea of "do your homework" for interviews trivializes professionals down to meaningless data points where real experience and past accomplishments are all rendered as null.
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  I've worked with people who have had 20 years experience and could tell you some detailed stuff about the projects they worked on. Problem was, other people on the project did all the heavy lifting.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  If something's on your resume, I consider it fair game for asking about.
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    So, testing someone's long term memory will reveal something about their job skills?
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      I never press for details, but if something's on a resume it's because the applicant wants me to consider that in my hiring decisions, and therefore should be prepared to back it up.
lhnz 11y ago
Just the other day during a JavaScript/React interview I was asked how a HashMap was implemented. At this point it's only being used for its Computer Science signalling value. JavaScript doesn't even have true HashMaps, and it's unlikely you'll find yourself implementing them while building a web app. It's just one example of poor interviewing practice but it's not the only problem.
- pech0rin 11y ago
  While implementation details may be unnecessary, I feel like knowing how something performs for lookups, insertions, deletions, etc. is important. It definitely shouldn't be the end all be all of hiring, but it is definitely helpful day-to-day to know how the code works performance wise with the data structures you are using.
  - ilostmykeys 11y ago
    that CS stuff you can look up and understand when you need it, like when you're looking for an efficient algorithm to do xyz, and so you should have curiosity and a wise intuition but beyond that as a web developer that knowledge should not sit in your brain because it will occupy precious thinking resources that you should dedicate to building great UX and making the code modular and maintainable which takes dedicating brain cells to understanding the world around you, not just a commodity piece of textbook knowledge that makes you feel smarter and covers up insecurities about having produced dull or even terrible UX -- "hey I know how to balance a red/black tree or build a hashmap implementation so I must be a under appreciated genius" when in fact that is commodity knowledge anyone can pick up from Google and a few hours of research and benchmarking (and having ability to allocate regions of your brain to tasks of wildly different nature on the fly which means you never keep crap in your head unless you're using it on daily basis) We could write a thesis on this, right? and we would disagree wildly, but in the end go put up your amazing UX n youtube and show me how memorizing the Algorithm Design Manual helped you create that amazing UX. UI work is mostly art and craft, with math/cs still relevant but applied from an intuitive dynamic center of your brain, not stored and ready to put on a white board on demand.
pmiller2 11y ago
They can and should, if the job truly relies on algorithms and data structures. Problem is that most jobs don't, and they still interview this way.

vonmoltke 11y ago

The problem is, most don't. If you have been writing web apps for five years and are interviewing for another job doing the same, it is highly unlikely that anything the interviewer asks that you have not already been dealing with on a daily basis is relevant to your actual ability to do the job.

Mc_Big_G 11y ago

Web development relies heavily on data structures and algorithms?

freyr 11y ago
> "If the job you're applying for relies heavily on data structures and algorithms" JustSomeNobody figured that if the interviewer is quizzing you on data structures and algorithms, surely the job you're applying for must rely on such knowledge. If only.
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  No, I assume you did your homework and found out that the company in fact DOES rely heavily on data structure and algorithms. If the job is hiring for just another web/CRUD dev, then sure, asking CS questions might be out of place.
  - phil21 11y ago
    Which is exactly what everyone gets upset about... No one cares if you get asked relevant questions for the job at hand. If they need a highly skilled algorithm guy (hint: this is extremely exceedingly rare) then by all means. The vast majority simply ask these questions for their own ego boost (lulz look at that idiot who can't even do basic CS101! good thing we're so smart!), as well as a means for social signaling that you came from the right background. It's basically a huge waste of time and mental energy for what amounts to mental masturbation from the interviewers.

seiji 11y ago

The problem is: interviews shouldn't be a mini-GCSE. If I have 20 years of experience and you want to ask me about something I did 10 years ago, I probably can't reproduce it on the spot, but does that mean I'm incompetent? The idea of "do your homework" for interviews trivializes professionals down to meaningless data points where real experience and past accomplishments are all rendered as null.

JustSomeNobody 11y ago
I've worked with people who have had 20 years experience and could tell you some detailed stuff about the projects they worked on. Problem was, other people on the project did all the heavy lifting.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
If something's on your resume, I consider it fair game for asking about.
- ryandrake 11y ago
  So, testing someone's long term memory will reveal something about their job skills?
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    I never press for details, but if something's on a resume it's because the applicant wants me to consider that in my hiring decisions, and therefore should be prepared to back it up.

lhnz 11y ago

Just the other day during a JavaScript/React interview I was asked how a HashMap was implemented. At this point it's only being used for its Computer Science signalling value. JavaScript doesn't even have true HashMaps, and it's unlikely you'll find yourself implementing them while building a web app. It's just one example of poor interviewing practice but it's not the only problem.

pech0rin 11y ago
While implementation details may be unnecessary, I feel like knowing how something performs for lookups, insertions, deletions, etc. is important. It definitely shouldn't be the end all be all of hiring, but it is definitely helpful day-to-day to know how the code works performance wise with the data structures you are using.
- ilostmykeys 11y ago
  that CS stuff you can look up and understand when you need it, like when you're looking for an efficient algorithm to do xyz, and so you should have curiosity and a wise intuition but beyond that as a web developer that knowledge should not sit in your brain because it will occupy precious thinking resources that you should dedicate to building great UX and making the code modular and maintainable which takes dedicating brain cells to understanding the world around you, not just a commodity piece of textbook knowledge that makes you feel smarter and covers up insecurities about having produced dull or even terrible UX -- "hey I know how to balance a red/black tree or build a hashmap implementation so I must be a under appreciated genius" when in fact that is commodity knowledge anyone can pick up from Google and a few hours of research and benchmarking (and having ability to allocate regions of your brain to tasks of wildly different nature on the fly which means you never keep crap in your head unless you're using it on daily basis) We could write a thesis on this, right? and we would disagree wildly, but in the end go put up your amazing UX n youtube and show me how memorizing the Algorithm Design Manual helped you create that amazing UX. UI work is mostly art and craft, with math/cs still relevant but applied from an intuitive dynamic center of your brain, not stored and ready to put on a white board on demand.

pmiller2 11y ago

They can and should, if the job truly relies on algorithms and data structures. Problem is that most jobs don't, and they still interview this way.