9 ms·

Business co-founder making me uncomfortable

6 points by eruditely 11y ago

i'm the technical cofounder and my cofounder is the'business guy. my cofounder is going to the media and attaching his homelessness to his identity and it's making me uncomfortable. he is really talking up the rags to riches story and wants to cultivate it. I associate this with poor form. i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want to keep my identity small. i'm known for being well read and I really dislke that my co founder is making the company identity into a gimicky thing that he is using to get past homelessness and talking up the homeless part of his identity too much. he is approaching the media and a film crew is coming to talk about us and i want to avoid this unnecessary attention and well, just actually do the fundamental work necessary to succeed. all this film crew stuff seems premature, too much fluffy stuff, i'm just interested in knocking it out of the park. i have grounds to not want to be a part of this right?I want to keep our identity small. I feel like an asshole, but I feel it is necessary. i'm 23 years younger than him. I grew up around his area and my friends live here and they're going to think I'm unskilled. I am also more intelligent than him, mentioning this is distasteful to me but he doesn't handle complex reasoning well at times or bad news. There is a stereotype of a 'business' guy getting the technical guy to do a lot of work for him and I don't want to give off the image that i'm getting taken advantage of. need to go to sleep now. i was an employee that was promoted and got ten percent he has thirty but while me and my co-worker just signed our equity papers it's not through yet and it took quite some time. i'm not getting paid, put 4 months of full time work in this, but neither is my co-worker(who i like a lot and is quite intelligent, and 6 months younger than me) i'm not homeless, live with my parents, and if they read it they will force me to quit. tl;dr i'm afraid we're going to have the image of unskilled individuals working here when we're not. we're capable of knocking it out of the park but the image that is being presented is gross to me. we're in the s.v. and i'm willing to meet with a trustworthy member of this community for quick advice.

dsr_ 11y ago
If you're "an employee that was promoted and got 10%" but are not being paid a salary, it is entirely possible that you are not in a fair situation. My recommendation is that you concentrate on that: is this a partnership you want to be in?
- eruditely 11y ago
  Well, the share that's being set is his 30% mine 10% he's already gotten us 2 contracts that bring us 5500 and 3200 and a year but this company isn't profitable and i think we just got a smaller contract that gets us 500 a year. we are not profitable. there is like 30-40% set aside for investors
ddorian43 11y ago
No salary and 10% ? Doesn't make sense to me.
- eruditely 11y ago
  I'm thinking about going back to school and finishing my degree and then working part time. This sound better?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - hotcool 11y ago
    Doesn't sound like you're a good fit for the company. Focus on school and your social life.
auganov 11y ago
Sounds like its much more than the image issue. Just run lol. I wish I did when I was in an analogous situation. Laughable equity, co-founder you can't respect, already built-up resentment - can only get worse.
Spoom 11y ago
You are getting taken advantage of. 10% equity while not taking any salary isn't fair in any circumstances I can fathom unless the company is already profitable.
- brianwawok 11y ago
  This. Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy. Look at what you actually stand to gain vs lose by staying on (ignore what you have invested). How are you living on no pay, and why would you take 10% equity for no pay? Do you have another dayjob or are you just living on savings for a small part of someones dream? My gut feeling is run - don't walk - away
- eruditely 11y ago
  Alright what about this option, I just go back to school full time and finish up my degree and work here part time.
  - panic 11y ago
    Why even work part-time? You're not getting paid. Tell them you need more equity and that your co-founder needs to focus on the business instead of on his personal image. When they say no, just leave completely (no part-time work unless you're actually paid for it) and go back to school. If they want you to build their company for them—and it is their company if you only have 10%—they need to compensate you properly.
    - eruditely 11y ago
      Well what about experience? People do unpaid internships all the time and I don't have a degree and I would need to transfer first. The equity stake is The founder 30%, me @ 10%, other co-worker that's full time @ 2.5% but getting paid and then another guy at 4%, and then our <staff> who do the work work related to the business itself, and then the rest is set aside for other employees and investors(a lot for investors). You still agree with this assessment? He did work on the company full time by himself and some other guy for half a year/year with 1 or 2 contracts without me, but he has no technical skills so he was just getting contracts himself. Just so you know I am definitely listening to exactly how you are wording it and will be making a decision based on these words.
jtfairbank 11y ago
This is a whole ball of worms: - Cofounders should have a roughly even equity split, with the min being no more than 10% less than the max (unless there is a significant factor like one founder investing 100k+ into the business at conception). This prevents resentment and keeps the conversations equal. - You will have to get used to being in the press, it is necessary to be successful. If this makes you uncomfortable, then have the non-tech founder be the face of the company. But your name and company will be in the press. - The non-tech stuff is his side of the business. 99% of the time it is best to let him handle this. You need to divide responsibility and then let go. - If your company relates to the plight of the homeless, this seems fine even if it is a bit early. Otherwise this seems like a distraction / gimic to gain publicity in a "look at what crazy startup founders have to do" kinda way. - Stop caring what other people think. If / when you're successful you'll get even more people who think you suck and talk shit about you, your product, etc.
JSeymourATL 11y ago
> i have grounds to not want to be a part of this right? I want to keep our identity small. As an equity partner in this start-up you now have a fiduciary interest in the Branding/Marketing/Public Image of the company. You didn't mention your market/client space. Does the press attention only serve your older partner's ego or does it help convey your company's story to your market? Before confronting your cofounder-- first seek to understand. Get the specific details of his media plans. Then consult with 1-2 branding experts, find one on Hourly Nerd > https://hourlynerd.com/your-matches/computer-software/grow-business/ https://hourlynerd.com/your-matches/computer-software/grow-b... A good chat with these guys should be the perfect sounding board whether or not the 'rags to riches' stunt is a sound idea.
- eruditely 11y ago
  The piece in my opinion does not sound that good and it was written by an amateur journalist.
eruditely 11y ago
i should add we have like 96k a year in monthly revenue but we're still not profitable. does this change anything? 30-40% is left aside for investors.
- brianwawok 11y ago
  So 96k is a good starting point, shows the business is gaining some traction. What are your expenses? Seems like the founder should be paying you at least 30 or 40k to live on, and adding money every new contract.
  - eruditely 11y ago
    well no one is taking a wage because the margins aren't good enough in this business, we're not profitable yet. so should i ask for more equity? i have no expenses because I have dad's credit card. lol. Odd no one commented on the one part I disliked. well my younger worker is taking a wake but it's like 17 an hour and he has no relevant technical skills
    - brianwawok 11y ago
      So working for no pay you need to STRONGLY believe in the company. Do you think in 1-2 years its going to be making millions of dollars? If so, get more equity. If not, quit. I think you are worrying too much about equity, when the problem is your position. Equity means nothing if you don't get paid out. The odds of you EVER getting pay to match all the hours work decreases with every day you show up for work.
      - eruditely 11y ago
        I also have the option of finishing up my degree. Should I just go back to school full time and try to transfer and work at work part time with the same equity arrangement or should I just continue with the advice that every one else has advised.
        11y ago
sharemywin 11y ago
your doing 9k per month and you can't pay anyone? where is the money going? And when do you expect to get paid a living wage? when would you be making a market wage?
- eruditely 11y ago
  We're paying our staff. There's <staff> <us> staff is some unglamorous work that we have to pay them a certain hourly rate for, but it takes a significant part out of our margins. So we pay them first. And it sounds like half a year to a year minimum.
ljw1001 11y ago
If your business partner is homeless and 23 years older than you, is there any reason to believe he knows much about business?
- eruditely 11y ago
  Well he moved from a different country here 2 years ago. He had a house in the south and in England but he moved here to try to make it big, and his last venture failed. He is talking to a few people to get a home right now and it looks like he will get one soon.
argonaut 11y ago
I will be very harsh, but only because I think you need to take a step back and take some time to figure things out. The reason you need to go to school, and not do a startup, has nothing to do with your equity/pay situation. You are simply not emotionally mature enough to be working at a startup. The first thing that stood out to me is the judgmentality over such trivial matters. Saying things like "i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want to keep my identity small. i'm known for being well read" really reminds me of when I was really arrogant in high school and felt the need to maintain an internal (and wholly undeserved) sense of moral/intellectual superiority over my more popular (not unsurprisingly) classmates. And then worrying about how your friends might perceive you because you're associated with him. These are not the signs of legitimate concern. These are the signs of insecurity. Similar to your fear that your parents would kick you out of the house if they read this post. This is not the sign of someone emotionally mature enough to be working full or part time at a startup. Now, you could be totally right about there being too much focus on media attention. But a socially mature adult (and business partner) would be comfortable bringing those concerns directly to their cofounder, not to an internet forum where they can let their ruminations run wild. The fact that you've also accepted an arrangement that is an absolutely terrible deal financially indicates a certain sense of naivete about employment, how startups work, and finances. This is not how unpaid internships work. The only reason to ever take an unpaid internship is if 1) it's at a highly prestigious company, or 2) it's in an industry where there are hundreds of overqualified applicants for every position. Either get a proper paid tech internship so you can actually learn what it feels like to have a real job at a real company with real mentorship, surrounded by people smarter than you. Or take classes and study hard so you can get into a good school.
- eruditely 11y ago
  edit: upon rereading your assessment and then my post, i thought this post was way overblown and while it contains kernels of truth i think it is unfair and too harsh. My parents would try to pressure me to quit if they thought I was working with someone like that, if they read the newspaper article I was referring to. Not this post. In asian families this sort of stuff matters and it's not a joke. (What race are you?) If we give off the impression that we are unskilled individuals, why would people trust us with difficult work? Why would people trust us with a touchy project? If they associate us with low skills why would they trust us over the next guy? These are all legitimate concerns in my eyes and I do not think that tangent covers it. I'm sorry if you want more information, adhd (which I have) comes with something called the 30% rule which is emotionally you are 30% behind your peers, so while I sympathize with what you said, your statements are correct. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OVS16Abo80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OVS16Abo80 (Source/fact check) . BUT if you take stimulants you're back to normal(so +30% and back to my age maturity) and yesterday I had very little sleep and did not take what I was prescribed if it makes you feel better. So both of us can win this one. your statement is correct to some degree of credibility but is false in the general case. I get complete symptomatic remission I just have higher variance in emotions. Perhaps too much information but this was a necessary statement on my part. * We have also had 2 advisers that didn't tell me anything was wrong/fishy and they've had plenty of business experience (20-50yrs between them). So my thought process was "My advisors would tell me if something was amiss". One of them has had two exits 3billion/300m . So I thought to myself "this is ethical, because these people would alert me to the facts". I used to meet with one 300m/3b he used to be a math professor at mit too, i met with this guy frequently and he was the one who told me I was smart (got my confidence back up after a few setbacks) so I thought hell, why not mention it? He again, did not alert me to the fact that anything was fishy. So I thought this is the guy who knows, he has had the exits and the industry experience and is in high standing and known to be ethical. If there's any one who would look out for me, it would be him, right? Guess not. I have to admit the harshness of your post has me thinking. >saying things like "i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want to keep my identity small. i'm known for being well read" really reminds me of when I was really arrogant in high school and felt the need to maintain an internal (and wholly undeserved) sense of moral/intellectual superiority over my more popular (not unsurprisingly) classmates. And then worrying about how your friends might perceive you because you're associated with him. These are not the signs of legitimate concern. These are the signs of insecurity. Well several people in this thread told me it was a legitimate image concern and responded as if nothing was wrong with that concern so this makes me doubt the validity of your claim and assessment. humans are social creatures man and I should be able to control my identity. At times in my life people have told me I'm too harsh on myself or not harsh enough, too self-conscious not self-conscious it's difficult to get an accurate opinion at times. If I had posted "i am not smarter" or not mentioned it someone would say "you're selling yourself short man!" or something of the sort, it's always a roll of the dice when when looking for opinions. I wanted my beliefs to be congruent to reality, so I cast a wide net for opinions. >Now, you could be totally right about there being too much focus on media attention. But a socially mature adult (and business partner) would be comfortable bringing those concerns directly to their cofounder, not to an internet forum where they can let their ruminations run wild. I did bring those concerns directly to him I just wanted to see if my assessment was correct. I have been told I have very eccentric opinions or unusual opinions so I try to get a feel for what everyone else is thinking. > The fact that you've also accepted an arrangement that is an absolutely terrible deal financially indicates a certain sense of naivete about employment, how startups work, and finances. This is not how unpaid internships work. The only reason to ever take an unpaid internship is if 1) it's at a highly prestigious company, or 2) it's in an industry where there are hundreds of overqualified applicants for every position. I don't know, I think you're exaggerating the unpaid internship thing, is this just white people who think that way? I know plenty of friends who have done so and they don't mind. I wrote this when I was really anxious and I didn't quite realize it at the time. When I woke up I felt physically different. Please do not read too much into this there's only so much you can infer from one days worth of information. everyone here has given me a lot more to worry about. I also accepted this job when my cognitive abilities were really taking a hit, I thought I had sleep apnea for awhile but it turned out I was getting too little phase 3 sleep, (Getting 7% as opposed to 25-35%) and this was making me nervous and cognitively under-performing and I was really glad to to be working on a real project and getting some experience and working on something legitimate that I could put on my resume.

6 points by eruditely 11y ago

dsr_ 11y ago

If you're "an employee that was promoted and got 10%" but are not being paid a salary, it is entirely possible that you are not in a fair situation. My recommendation is that you concentrate on that: is this a partnership you want to be in?

eruditely 11y ago
Well, the share that's being set is his 30% mine 10% he's already gotten us 2 contracts that bring us 5500 and 3200 and a year but this company isn't profitable and i think we just got a smaller contract that gets us 500 a year. we are not profitable. there is like 30-40% set aside for investors

ddorian43 11y ago

No salary and 10% ? Doesn't make sense to me.

eruditely 11y ago
I'm thinking about going back to school and finishing my degree and then working part time. This sound better?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- hotcool 11y ago
  Doesn't sound like you're a good fit for the company. Focus on school and your social life.

auganov 11y ago

Sounds like its much more than the image issue. Just run lol. I wish I did when I was in an analogous situation. Laughable equity, co-founder you can't respect, already built-up resentment - can only get worse.

Spoom 11y ago

You are getting taken advantage of. 10% equity while not taking any salary isn't fair in any circumstances I can fathom unless the company is already profitable.

brianwawok 11y ago
This. Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy. Look at what you actually stand to gain vs lose by staying on (ignore what you have invested). How are you living on no pay, and why would you take 10% equity for no pay? Do you have another dayjob or are you just living on savings for a small part of someones dream? My gut feeling is run - don't walk - away
eruditely 11y ago
Alright what about this option, I just go back to school full time and finish up my degree and work here part time.
- panic 11y ago
  Why even work part-time? You're not getting paid. Tell them you need more equity and that your co-founder needs to focus on the business instead of on his personal image. When they say no, just leave completely (no part-time work unless you're actually paid for it) and go back to school. If they want you to build their company for them—and it is their company if you only have 10%—they need to compensate you properly.
  - eruditely 11y ago
    Well what about experience? People do unpaid internships all the time and I don't have a degree and I would need to transfer first. The equity stake is The founder 30%, me @ 10%, other co-worker that's full time @ 2.5% but getting paid and then another guy at 4%, and then our <staff> who do the work work related to the business itself, and then the rest is set aside for other employees and investors(a lot for investors). You still agree with this assessment? He did work on the company full time by himself and some other guy for half a year/year with 1 or 2 contracts without me, but he has no technical skills so he was just getting contracts himself. Just so you know I am definitely listening to exactly how you are wording it and will be making a decision based on these words.

jtfairbank 11y ago

This is a whole ball of worms: - Cofounders should have a roughly even equity split, with the min being no more than 10% less than the max (unless there is a significant factor like one founder investing 100k+ into the business at conception). This prevents resentment and keeps the conversations equal. - You will have to get used to being in the press, it is necessary to be successful. If this makes you uncomfortable, then have the non-tech founder be the face of the company. But your name and company will be in the press. - The non-tech stuff is his side of the business. 99% of the time it is best to let him handle this. You need to divide responsibility and then let go. - If your company relates to the plight of the homeless, this seems fine even if it is a bit early. Otherwise this seems like a distraction / gimic to gain publicity in a "look at what crazy startup founders have to do" kinda way. - Stop caring what other people think. If / when you're successful you'll get even more people who think you suck and talk shit about you, your product, etc.

JSeymourATL 11y ago

> i have grounds to not want to be a part of this right? I want to keep our identity small. As an equity partner in this start-up you now have a fiduciary interest in the Branding/Marketing/Public Image of the company. You didn't mention your market/client space. Does the press attention only serve your older partner's ego or does it help convey your company's story to your market? Before confronting your cofounder-- first seek to understand. Get the specific details of his media plans. Then consult with 1-2 branding experts, find one on Hourly Nerd > https://hourlynerd.com/your-matches/computer-software/grow-business/ https://hourlynerd.com/your-matches/computer-software/grow-b... A good chat with these guys should be the perfect sounding board whether or not the 'rags to riches' stunt is a sound idea.

eruditely 11y ago
The piece in my opinion does not sound that good and it was written by an amateur journalist.

eruditely 11y ago

i should add we have like 96k a year in monthly revenue but we're still not profitable. does this change anything? 30-40% is left aside for investors.

brianwawok 11y ago
So 96k is a good starting point, shows the business is gaining some traction. What are your expenses? Seems like the founder should be paying you at least 30 or 40k to live on, and adding money every new contract.
- eruditely 11y ago
  well no one is taking a wage because the margins aren't good enough in this business, we're not profitable yet. so should i ask for more equity? i have no expenses because I have dad's credit card. lol. Odd no one commented on the one part I disliked. well my younger worker is taking a wake but it's like 17 an hour and he has no relevant technical skills
  - brianwawok 11y ago
    So working for no pay you need to STRONGLY believe in the company. Do you think in 1-2 years its going to be making millions of dollars? If so, get more equity. If not, quit. I think you are worrying too much about equity, when the problem is your position. Equity means nothing if you don't get paid out. The odds of you EVER getting pay to match all the hours work decreases with every day you show up for work.
    - eruditely 11y ago
      I also have the option of finishing up my degree. Should I just go back to school full time and try to transfer and work at work part time with the same equity arrangement or should I just continue with the advice that every one else has advised.
      - 11y ago

sharemywin 11y ago

your doing 9k per month and you can't pay anyone? where is the money going? And when do you expect to get paid a living wage? when would you be making a market wage?

eruditely 11y ago
We're paying our staff. There's <staff> <us> staff is some unglamorous work that we have to pay them a certain hourly rate for, but it takes a significant part out of our margins. So we pay them first. And it sounds like half a year to a year minimum.

ljw1001 11y ago

If your business partner is homeless and 23 years older than you, is there any reason to believe he knows much about business?

eruditely 11y ago
Well he moved from a different country here 2 years ago. He had a house in the south and in England but he moved here to try to make it big, and his last venture failed. He is talking to a few people to get a home right now and it looks like he will get one soon.

argonaut 11y ago

I will be very harsh, but only because I think you need to take a step back and take some time to figure things out. The reason you need to go to school, and not do a startup, has nothing to do with your equity/pay situation. You are simply not emotionally mature enough to be working at a startup. The first thing that stood out to me is the judgmentality over such trivial matters. Saying things like "i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want to keep my identity small. i'm known for being well read" really reminds me of when I was really arrogant in high school and felt the need to maintain an internal (and wholly undeserved) sense of moral/intellectual superiority over my more popular (not unsurprisingly) classmates. And then worrying about how your friends might perceive you because you're associated with him. These are not the signs of legitimate concern. These are the signs of insecurity. Similar to your fear that your parents would kick you out of the house if they read this post. This is not the sign of someone emotionally mature enough to be working full or part time at a startup. Now, you could be totally right about there being too much focus on media attention. But a socially mature adult (and business partner) would be comfortable bringing those concerns directly to their cofounder, not to an internet forum where they can let their ruminations run wild. The fact that you've also accepted an arrangement that is an absolutely terrible deal financially indicates a certain sense of naivete about employment, how startups work, and finances. This is not how unpaid internships work. The only reason to ever take an unpaid internship is if 1) it's at a highly prestigious company, or 2) it's in an industry where there are hundreds of overqualified applicants for every position. Either get a proper paid tech internship so you can actually learn what it feels like to have a real job at a real company with real mentorship, surrounded by people smarter than you. Or take classes and study hard so you can get into a good school.

eruditely 11y ago
edit: upon rereading your assessment and then my post, i thought this post was way overblown and while it contains kernels of truth i think it is unfair and too harsh. My parents would try to pressure me to quit if they thought I was working with someone like that, if they read the newspaper article I was referring to. Not this post. In asian families this sort of stuff matters and it's not a joke. (What race are you?) If we give off the impression that we are unskilled individuals, why would people trust us with difficult work? Why would people trust us with a touchy project? If they associate us with low skills why would they trust us over the next guy? These are all legitimate concerns in my eyes and I do not think that tangent covers it. I'm sorry if you want more information, adhd (which I have) comes with something called the 30% rule which is emotionally you are 30% behind your peers, so while I sympathize with what you said, your statements are correct. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OVS16Abo80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OVS16Abo80 (Source/fact check) . BUT if you take stimulants you're back to normal(so +30% and back to my age maturity) and yesterday I had very little sleep and did not take what I was prescribed if it makes you feel better. So both of us can win this one. your statement is correct to some degree of credibility but is false in the general case. I get complete symptomatic remission I just have higher variance in emotions. Perhaps too much information but this was a necessary statement on my part. * We have also had 2 advisers that didn't tell me anything was wrong/fishy and they've had plenty of business experience (20-50yrs between them). So my thought process was "My advisors would tell me if something was amiss". One of them has had two exits 3billion/300m . So I thought to myself "this is ethical, because these people would alert me to the facts". I used to meet with one 300m/3b he used to be a math professor at mit too, i met with this guy frequently and he was the one who told me I was smart (got my confidence back up after a few setbacks) so I thought hell, why not mention it? He again, did not alert me to the fact that anything was fishy. So I thought this is the guy who knows, he has had the exits and the industry experience and is in high standing and known to be ethical. If there's any one who would look out for me, it would be him, right? Guess not. I have to admit the harshness of your post has me thinking. >saying things like "i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want to keep my identity small. i'm known for being well read" really reminds me of when I was really arrogant in high school and felt the need to maintain an internal (and wholly undeserved) sense of moral/intellectual superiority over my more popular (not unsurprisingly) classmates. And then worrying about how your friends might perceive you because you're associated with him. These are not the signs of legitimate concern. These are the signs of insecurity. Well several people in this thread told me it was a legitimate image concern and responded as if nothing was wrong with that concern so this makes me doubt the validity of your claim and assessment. humans are social creatures man and I should be able to control my identity. At times in my life people have told me I'm too harsh on myself or not harsh enough, too self-conscious not self-conscious it's difficult to get an accurate opinion at times. If I had posted "i am not smarter" or not mentioned it someone would say "you're selling yourself short man!" or something of the sort, it's always a roll of the dice when when looking for opinions. I wanted my beliefs to be congruent to reality, so I cast a wide net for opinions. >Now, you could be totally right about there being too much focus on media attention. But a socially mature adult (and business partner) would be comfortable bringing those concerns directly to their cofounder, not to an internet forum where they can let their ruminations run wild. I did bring those concerns directly to him I just wanted to see if my assessment was correct. I have been told I have very eccentric opinions or unusual opinions so I try to get a feel for what everyone else is thinking. > The fact that you've also accepted an arrangement that is an absolutely terrible deal financially indicates a certain sense of naivete about employment, how startups work, and finances. This is not how unpaid internships work. The only reason to ever take an unpaid internship is if 1) it's at a highly prestigious company, or 2) it's in an industry where there are hundreds of overqualified applicants for every position. I don't know, I think you're exaggerating the unpaid internship thing, is this just white people who think that way? I know plenty of friends who have done so and they don't mind. I wrote this when I was really anxious and I didn't quite realize it at the time. When I woke up I felt physically different. Please do not read too much into this there's only so much you can infer from one days worth of information. everyone here has given me a lot more to worry about. I also accepted this job when my cognitive abilities were really taking a hit, I thought I had sleep apnea for awhile but it turned out I was getting too little phase 3 sleep, (Getting 7% as opposed to 25-35%) and this was making me nervous and cognitively under-performing and I was really glad to to be working on a real project and getting some experience and working on something legitimate that I could put on my resume.