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I would say that this has been Tim Cook's narrative for a while, While part of it may be PR, I also believe that these are Tim Cook's values shining through. H

I would say that this has been Tim Cook's narrative for a while, While part of it may be PR, I also believe that these are Tim Cook's values shining through. Having an orientation that gets you jailed or killed in some countries, makes you value individual freedom and privacy. It's great to see this new Apple.

benevol 11y ago
> While part of it may be PR It definitely is. The NSA has access to all this data anyways. They just need to get it nailed down legally now, as far as possible. Apple just can't be seen as collaborating.
- 746F7475 11y ago
  > The NSA has access to all this data anyways How so?
  - benevol 11y ago
    You can't seriously ask that question if you have been following the Snowden leaks, the corrupt behavior and proven lies of certain very powerful government officials.
    - 746F7475 11y ago
      And Apple is owned by the government?
  - appleflaxen 11y ago
    This seems like a disingenuous question.
  - fukusa 11y ago
    1. Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES 2. Does the NSA have a reason to do it? YES
    - Angostura 11y ago
      > Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES Serious question - is it?
      - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        Serious question. Is it safe to assume that the NSA can't? NO The NSA might or might not share with the FBI, and the FBI might or might not be able to use what's shared in court, which could explain why they want new authority.
        Angostura 11y ago
        I was simply questioning the bald assumption that the NSA already has access to this, not suggesting that we should assume the opposite.
Cyph0n 11y ago
Why does his orientation have to be included when we discuss his ideals and motivations?
- gambiting 11y ago
  He(or she) literally said why in his(or her) post. If you are part of a group for which discrimination is very real, then you naturally value privacy laws much more.
- mattzito 11y ago
  If your opinion is that his orientation influenced/drove his ideals and motivations, it's relevant to mention. I don't think the gp is arguing that's the only way to have those ideals.
- danieldk 11y ago
  Why not? He said himself that this gave him a deeper understanding of the struggles of minority groups: Being gay has given me a deeper understanding of what it means to be in the minority and provided a window into the challenges that people in other minority groups deal with every day. Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-speaks-up http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-s... I think it is relevant to the discussion, because I believe that this is a much deeper motivation than profit maximization. Though, there are of course many other ways to reach the conclusion that privacy is important.
  - pionar 11y ago
    And on top of that, he probably understands the tactics the FBI used against civil rights leaders in the 60s and before (and even after).
- Geee 11y ago
  It is a matter that is very private to some people, and he gets that. Not all people understand at all what personal privacy means.
- user_0001 11y ago
masklinn 11y ago
> Having an orientation that gets you jailed or killed in some countries Cook was born in Alabama in 1960. For a long time, his orientation could get him jailed or killed in his place of birth. Hell, as of 2016 Alabama still is hardly a good place for people with Cook's sexual orientation[0][1][2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/alabama-chief-justice-orders-state-to-enforce-ban-on-same-sex-marriage http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/... [2] 13A-6-65(3)[3], though ruled unconstitutional (since 2003 and Lawrence v. Texas), is still on the books [3] http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65 http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65
gotchange 11y ago
Have you heard of Ernst Röhm the Nazi general who was openly gay during his tenure? Apparently his homosexuality and the resulting stigmatization didn't stop him from espousing horrendous values and ideals. Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe to and thus shouldn't be taken into consideration in any serious discussion about the topic.
- soft_dev_person 11y ago
  > Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe (...) They _may_ have no weight, indeed, as your anecdote illustrates. People tend to empathize more with people they have something in common with (some research suggests [0][1]), so I think many of us would certainly have a mindset affected by our minority-held sexual orientation, in matters where our sexual orientation actually plays a role (security being one of the more obvious cases). [0]: http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 [1]: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9937726&fileId=S1838095615000062 http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPag...
  - gotchange 11y ago
    The OP's statement was basically that being a homosexual makes him automatically being a lover of individual freedom and liberties to which I objected and exposed the flaw in that argument citing a historical example of a famous openly gay person who was all for everything that's the opposite of freedom and liberty. If the OP's argument was limited to only the privacy part, I'd have agreed tentatively with him/her as it's undisputed truth that gays under persecution or living in discriminatory environments favor privacy intensely and therefore it could be argued that this influenced the decision of Tim Cook in the apparent fight with the FBI.
- braythwayt 11y ago
  > I found a cat that does not like milk. > > Therefore, if I see a cat, I can draw no inference > about the probability that they like milk. This is not correct. It is correct to say that having found a cat that does not like milk, we know that cats do not necessarily like milk. That is valuable and relevant. But nevertheless, we can still have some confidence that, absent other indicators, cats like milk. p.s. Here’s another example closer to home of a “cat that did not like milk:” Roy Cohn, who carried out anti-homosexual witch hunts, and later died of AIDS. Edit: Adding link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn

benevol 11y ago

> While part of it may be PR It definitely is. The NSA has access to all this data anyways. They just need to get it nailed down legally now, as far as possible. Apple just can't be seen as collaborating.

746F7475 11y ago
> The NSA has access to all this data anyways How so?
- benevol 11y ago
  You can't seriously ask that question if you have been following the Snowden leaks, the corrupt behavior and proven lies of certain very powerful government officials.
  - 746F7475 11y ago
    And Apple is owned by the government?
- appleflaxen 11y ago
  This seems like a disingenuous question.
- fukusa 11y ago
  1. Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES 2. Does the NSA have a reason to do it? YES
  - Angostura 11y ago
    > Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES Serious question - is it?
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      Serious question. Is it safe to assume that the NSA can't? NO The NSA might or might not share with the FBI, and the FBI might or might not be able to use what's shared in court, which could explain why they want new authority.
      - Angostura 11y ago
        I was simply questioning the bald assumption that the NSA already has access to this, not suggesting that we should assume the opposite.

Cyph0n 11y ago

Why does his orientation have to be included when we discuss his ideals and motivations?

gambiting 11y ago
He(or she) literally said why in his(or her) post. If you are part of a group for which discrimination is very real, then you naturally value privacy laws much more.
mattzito 11y ago
If your opinion is that his orientation influenced/drove his ideals and motivations, it's relevant to mention. I don't think the gp is arguing that's the only way to have those ideals.
danieldk 11y ago
Why not? He said himself that this gave him a deeper understanding of the struggles of minority groups: Being gay has given me a deeper understanding of what it means to be in the minority and provided a window into the challenges that people in other minority groups deal with every day. Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-speaks-up http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-s... I think it is relevant to the discussion, because I believe that this is a much deeper motivation than profit maximization. Though, there are of course many other ways to reach the conclusion that privacy is important.
- pionar 11y ago
  And on top of that, he probably understands the tactics the FBI used against civil rights leaders in the 60s and before (and even after).
Geee 11y ago
It is a matter that is very private to some people, and he gets that. Not all people understand at all what personal privacy means.
user_0001 11y ago

masklinn 11y ago

> Having an orientation that gets you jailed or killed in some countries Cook was born in Alabama in 1960. For a long time, his orientation could get him jailed or killed in his place of birth. Hell, as of 2016 Alabama still is hardly a good place for people with Cook's sexual orientation[0][1][2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/alabama-chief-justice-orders-state-to-enforce-ban-on-same-sex-marriage http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/... [2] 13A-6-65(3)[3], though ruled unconstitutional (since 2003 and Lawrence v. Texas), is still on the books [3] http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65 http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65

gotchange 11y ago

Have you heard of Ernst Röhm the Nazi general who was openly gay during his tenure? Apparently his homosexuality and the resulting stigmatization didn't stop him from espousing horrendous values and ideals. Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe to and thus shouldn't be taken into consideration in any serious discussion about the topic.

soft_dev_person 11y ago
> Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe (...) They _may_ have no weight, indeed, as your anecdote illustrates. People tend to empathize more with people they have something in common with (some research suggests [0][1]), so I think many of us would certainly have a mindset affected by our minority-held sexual orientation, in matters where our sexual orientation actually plays a role (security being one of the more obvious cases). [0]: http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 [1]: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9937726&fileId=S1838095615000062 http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPag...
- gotchange 11y ago
  The OP's statement was basically that being a homosexual makes him automatically being a lover of individual freedom and liberties to which I objected and exposed the flaw in that argument citing a historical example of a famous openly gay person who was all for everything that's the opposite of freedom and liberty. If the OP's argument was limited to only the privacy part, I'd have agreed tentatively with him/her as it's undisputed truth that gays under persecution or living in discriminatory environments favor privacy intensely and therefore it could be argued that this influenced the decision of Tim Cook in the apparent fight with the FBI.
braythwayt 11y ago
> I found a cat that does not like milk. > > Therefore, if I see a cat, I can draw no inference > about the probability that they like milk. This is not correct. It is correct to say that having found a cat that does not like milk, we know that cats do not necessarily like milk. That is valuable and relevant. But nevertheless, we can still have some confidence that, absent other indicators, cats like milk. p.s. Here’s another example closer to home of a “cat that did not like milk:” Roy Cohn, who carried out anti-homosexual witch hunts, and later died of AIDS. Edit: Adding link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn