5 ms·

I'm starting to think Apple has found its first viable post-Jobs narrative.

by Vivtek 11y ago

saurik 11y ago
I would say that this has been Tim Cook's narrative for a while, and along this path we've seen iOS integrate things like WiFi MAC randomization and website ad blocking.
- danieldk 11y ago
  I would say that this has been Tim Cook's narrative for a while, While part of it may be PR, I also believe that these are Tim Cook's values shining through. Having an orientation that gets you jailed or killed in some countries, makes you value individual freedom and privacy. It's great to see this new Apple.
  - benevol 11y ago
    > While part of it may be PR It definitely is. The NSA has access to all this data anyways. They just need to get it nailed down legally now, as far as possible. Apple just can't be seen as collaborating.
    - 746F7475 11y ago
      > The NSA has access to all this data anyways How so?
      - benevol 11y ago
        You can't seriously ask that question if you have been following the Snowden leaks, the corrupt behavior and proven lies of certain very powerful government officials.
        746F7475 11y ago
        And Apple is owned by the government?
      - appleflaxen 11y ago
        This seems like a disingenuous question.
      - fukusa 11y ago
        1. Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES 2. Does the NSA have a reason to do it? YES
        Angostura 11y ago
        > Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES Serious question - is it?
        fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        Serious question. Is it safe to assume that the NSA can't? NO The NSA might or might not share with the FBI, and the FBI might or might not be able to use what's shared in court, which could explain why they want new authority.
        Angostura 11y ago
        I was simply questioning the bald assumption that the NSA already has access to this, not suggesting that we should assume the opposite.
  - Cyph0n 11y ago
    Why does his orientation have to be included when we discuss his ideals and motivations?
    - gambiting 11y ago
      He(or she) literally said why in his(or her) post. If you are part of a group for which discrimination is very real, then you naturally value privacy laws much more.
    - mattzito 11y ago
      If your opinion is that his orientation influenced/drove his ideals and motivations, it's relevant to mention. I don't think the gp is arguing that's the only way to have those ideals.
    - danieldk 11y ago
      Why not? He said himself that this gave him a deeper understanding of the struggles of minority groups: Being gay has given me a deeper understanding of what it means to be in the minority and provided a window into the challenges that people in other minority groups deal with every day. Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-speaks-up http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-s... I think it is relevant to the discussion, because I believe that this is a much deeper motivation than profit maximization. Though, there are of course many other ways to reach the conclusion that privacy is important.
      - pionar 11y ago
        And on top of that, he probably understands the tactics the FBI used against civil rights leaders in the 60s and before (and even after).
    - Geee 11y ago
      It is a matter that is very private to some people, and he gets that. Not all people understand at all what personal privacy means.
    - user_0001 11y ago
  - masklinn 11y ago
    > Having an orientation that gets you jailed or killed in some countries Cook was born in Alabama in 1960. For a long time, his orientation could get him jailed or killed in his place of birth. Hell, as of 2016 Alabama still is hardly a good place for people with Cook's sexual orientation[0][1][2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/alabama-chief-justice-orders-state-to-enforce-ban-on-same-sex-marriage http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/... [2] 13A-6-65(3)[3], though ruled unconstitutional (since 2003 and Lawrence v. Texas), is still on the books [3] http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65 http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65
  - gotchange 11y ago
    Have you heard of Ernst Röhm the Nazi general who was openly gay during his tenure? Apparently his homosexuality and the resulting stigmatization didn't stop him from espousing horrendous values and ideals. Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe to and thus shouldn't be taken into consideration in any serious discussion about the topic.
    - soft_dev_person 11y ago
      > Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe (...) They _may_ have no weight, indeed, as your anecdote illustrates. People tend to empathize more with people they have something in common with (some research suggests [0][1]), so I think many of us would certainly have a mindset affected by our minority-held sexual orientation, in matters where our sexual orientation actually plays a role (security being one of the more obvious cases). [0]: http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 [1]: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9937726&fileId=S1838095615000062 http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPag...
      - gotchange 11y ago
        The OP's statement was basically that being a homosexual makes him automatically being a lover of individual freedom and liberties to which I objected and exposed the flaw in that argument citing a historical example of a famous openly gay person who was all for everything that's the opposite of freedom and liberty. If the OP's argument was limited to only the privacy part, I'd have agreed tentatively with him/her as it's undisputed truth that gays under persecution or living in discriminatory environments favor privacy intensely and therefore it could be argued that this influenced the decision of Tim Cook in the apparent fight with the FBI.
    - braythwayt 11y ago
      > I found a cat that does not like milk. > > Therefore, if I see a cat, I can draw no inference > about the probability that they like milk. This is not correct. It is correct to say that having found a cat that does not like milk, we know that cats do not necessarily like milk. That is valuable and relevant. But nevertheless, we can still have some confidence that, absent other indicators, cats like milk. p.s. Here’s another example closer to home of a “cat that did not like milk:” Roy Cohn, who carried out anti-homosexual witch hunts, and later died of AIDS. Edit: Adding link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn
gear54rus 11y ago
This is all a waste and show off as far as I'm concerned until they go open on everything. With this move, they will also waste very valuable developer's (crypto experience ain't cheap) skills.
- danieldk 11y ago
  This is all a waste and show off as far as I'm concerned until they go open on everything. What would that bring them? Other companies would rip off iOS, bastardize & put their slow skins on it, and never release security updates (or modified source files). I agree that opening up security infrastructure would be good though.
- rimantas 11y ago
  So having his work on billion of devices is a waste in your view? Ok.
- Coding_Cat 11y ago
  I am not, nor have I ever been, a big fan of Apple. (apart from all the usuall complaints, I am one of those freaks who just doesn't like Apple's interface & design). But this is a step in the right direction. Would it be better if it were more open? sure. Is it useless if it isn't? not really, it still protects the users and puts pressure on other manufacturers to do something similar. Who knows, maybe internally they're even looking at making things more open but that could require a lot more work w.r.t. scanning for patents and such in their code and perhaps they want to have a strong solid release of whatever they would consider a "full system" before they put up their code for all to see. Apple doen't, historically, have much of a history of opening up but they did open up Swift recently. Perhaps new winds are starting to blow like they did at Microsoft.
- etiam 11y ago
  I'm inclined to agree in that they can't really be trusted if they can't be thoroughly audited and all the lockdown is an obstruction to that. On the other hand I think they could really be doing good things behind the veils, and that could benefit very large numbers of people who don't have the knowledge or inclination to defend their own communications, (and anyone who has the knowledge and inclination but also the misfortune of needing to communicate with those who don't). I don't know anything about Jacobs beyond what we've just seen here, but I would guess someone who has worked on that level with Open Whisper Systems wouldn't be prone to accepting poor security design, nor to accepting unethical practices in handling user information. I'd be much happier with an open Apple Inc. too, but as long as it keeps standing for a closed and locked environment, Jacobs seems like just the kind of person I would want working there.

I'm starting to think Apple has found its first viable post-Jobs narrative.

by Vivtek 11y ago

I'm starting to think Apple has found its first viable post-Jobs narrative.

I would say that this has been Tim Cook's narrative for a while, and along this path we've seen iOS integrate things like WiFi MAC randomization and website ad blocking.

danieldk 11y ago
I would say that this has been Tim Cook's narrative for a while, While part of it may be PR, I also believe that these are Tim Cook's values shining through. Having an orientation that gets you jailed or killed in some countries, makes you value individual freedom and privacy. It's great to see this new Apple.
- benevol 11y ago
  > While part of it may be PR It definitely is. The NSA has access to all this data anyways. They just need to get it nailed down legally now, as far as possible. Apple just can't be seen as collaborating.
  - 746F7475 11y ago
    > The NSA has access to all this data anyways How so?
    - benevol 11y ago
      You can't seriously ask that question if you have been following the Snowden leaks, the corrupt behavior and proven lies of certain very powerful government officials.
      - 746F7475 11y ago
        And Apple is owned by the government?
    - appleflaxen 11y ago
      This seems like a disingenuous question.
    - fukusa 11y ago
      1. Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES 2. Does the NSA have a reason to do it? YES
      - Angostura 11y ago
        > Is the NSA capable of doing it? YES Serious question - is it?
        fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        Serious question. Is it safe to assume that the NSA can't? NO The NSA might or might not share with the FBI, and the FBI might or might not be able to use what's shared in court, which could explain why they want new authority.
        Angostura 11y ago
        I was simply questioning the bald assumption that the NSA already has access to this, not suggesting that we should assume the opposite.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  Why does his orientation have to be included when we discuss his ideals and motivations?
  - gambiting 11y ago
    He(or she) literally said why in his(or her) post. If you are part of a group for which discrimination is very real, then you naturally value privacy laws much more.
  - mattzito 11y ago
    If your opinion is that his orientation influenced/drove his ideals and motivations, it's relevant to mention. I don't think the gp is arguing that's the only way to have those ideals.
  - danieldk 11y ago
    Why not? He said himself that this gave him a deeper understanding of the struggles of minority groups: Being gay has given me a deeper understanding of what it means to be in the minority and provided a window into the challenges that people in other minority groups deal with every day. Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-speaks-up http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-30/tim-cook-s... I think it is relevant to the discussion, because I believe that this is a much deeper motivation than profit maximization. Though, there are of course many other ways to reach the conclusion that privacy is important.
    - pionar 11y ago
      And on top of that, he probably understands the tactics the FBI used against civil rights leaders in the 60s and before (and even after).
  - Geee 11y ago
    It is a matter that is very private to some people, and he gets that. Not all people understand at all what personal privacy means.
  - user_0001 11y ago
- masklinn 11y ago
  > Having an orientation that gets you jailed or killed in some countries Cook was born in Alabama in 1960. For a long time, his orientation could get him jailed or killed in his place of birth. Hell, as of 2016 Alabama still is hardly a good place for people with Cook's sexual orientation[0][1][2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore#Same-sex_marriage [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/alabama-chief-justice-orders-state-to-enforce-ban-on-same-sex-marriage http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/06/462161670/... [2] 13A-6-65(3)[3], though ruled unconstitutional (since 2003 and Lawrence v. Texas), is still on the books [3] http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65 http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/alcode/13A/6/4/13A-6-65
- gotchange 11y ago
  Have you heard of Ernst Röhm the Nazi general who was openly gay during his tenure? Apparently his homosexuality and the resulting stigmatization didn't stop him from espousing horrendous values and ideals. Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe to and thus shouldn't be taken into consideration in any serious discussion about the topic.
  - soft_dev_person 11y ago
    > Someone's sexual orientation has no weight on the values system that he/she would subscribe (...) They _may_ have no weight, indeed, as your anecdote illustrates. People tend to empathize more with people they have something in common with (some research suggests [0][1]), so I think many of us would certainly have a mindset affected by our minority-held sexual orientation, in matters where our sexual orientation actually plays a role (security being one of the more obvious cases). [0]: http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 http://psp.sagepub.com/content/36/3/398 [1]: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9937726&fileId=S1838095615000062 http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPag...
    - gotchange 11y ago
      The OP's statement was basically that being a homosexual makes him automatically being a lover of individual freedom and liberties to which I objected and exposed the flaw in that argument citing a historical example of a famous openly gay person who was all for everything that's the opposite of freedom and liberty. If the OP's argument was limited to only the privacy part, I'd have agreed tentatively with him/her as it's undisputed truth that gays under persecution or living in discriminatory environments favor privacy intensely and therefore it could be argued that this influenced the decision of Tim Cook in the apparent fight with the FBI.
  - braythwayt 11y ago
    > I found a cat that does not like milk. > > Therefore, if I see a cat, I can draw no inference > about the probability that they like milk. This is not correct. It is correct to say that having found a cat that does not like milk, we know that cats do not necessarily like milk. That is valuable and relevant. But nevertheless, we can still have some confidence that, absent other indicators, cats like milk. p.s. Here’s another example closer to home of a “cat that did not like milk:” Roy Cohn, who carried out anti-homosexual witch hunts, and later died of AIDS. Edit: Adding link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn

gear54rus 11y ago

This is all a waste and show off as far as I'm concerned until they go open on everything. With this move, they will also waste very valuable developer's (crypto experience ain't cheap) skills.

danieldk 11y ago
This is all a waste and show off as far as I'm concerned until they go open on everything. What would that bring them? Other companies would rip off iOS, bastardize & put their slow skins on it, and never release security updates (or modified source files). I agree that opening up security infrastructure would be good though.
rimantas 11y ago
So having his work on billion of devices is a waste in your view? Ok.
Coding_Cat 11y ago
I am not, nor have I ever been, a big fan of Apple. (apart from all the usuall complaints, I am one of those freaks who just doesn't like Apple's interface & design). But this is a step in the right direction. Would it be better if it were more open? sure. Is it useless if it isn't? not really, it still protects the users and puts pressure on other manufacturers to do something similar. Who knows, maybe internally they're even looking at making things more open but that could require a lot more work w.r.t. scanning for patents and such in their code and perhaps they want to have a strong solid release of whatever they would consider a "full system" before they put up their code for all to see. Apple doen't, historically, have much of a history of opening up but they did open up Swift recently. Perhaps new winds are starting to blow like they did at Microsoft.
etiam 11y ago
I'm inclined to agree in that they can't really be trusted if they can't be thoroughly audited and all the lockdown is an obstruction to that. On the other hand I think they could really be doing good things behind the veils, and that could benefit very large numbers of people who don't have the knowledge or inclination to defend their own communications, (and anyone who has the knowledge and inclination but also the misfortune of needing to communicate with those who don't). I don't know anything about Jacobs beyond what we've just seen here, but I would guess someone who has worked on that level with Open Whisper Systems wouldn't be prone to accepting poor security design, nor to accepting unethical practices in handling user information. I'd be much happier with an open Apple Inc. too, but as long as it keeps standing for a closed and locked environment, Jacobs seems like just the kind of person I would want working there.