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It is vaguely mentioned in the article but I think controlling for the type of schools that students are exiting from is an important factor in determining if t

It is vaguely mentioned in the article but I think controlling for the type of schools that students are exiting from is an important factor in determining if there is a "pipeline" problem. For example it was mentioned that Black and Hispanic Tech graduates are more likely to end up in office support roles. Out of the top 20 engineering/computer science programs in the country I doubt almost any students are ending up in those type of roles. So likely Black and Hispanic "Tech" graduates are much less likely to be of top engineering programs. There is an enrollment issue. There is a corporate bias and culture issue. There is a primary school issue... the list goes on. From working in management consulting I can tell you that even when name-blind resume reads are incorporated and diversity programs are really emphasized (Which they are), the issue comes to when candidates from Black and Hispanic backgrounds show up to an interview they are relatively VERY poorly prepared. This is usually because the student groups at elite colleges that prepare you for tech/consulting/banking jobs are pretty bad at reaching out to minority (Black and Hispanic) students. The problem is systemic from pre-school to the career fair. I believe it will change. But no one lever will do the full trick.

michaelbuddy 11y ago
what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.
- coldtea 11y ago
  You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.
  - mlkjr 11y ago
    Having grown up in the Birmingham, Alabama public education system I can tell you segregation never really ended. Sure there aren't signs designating black and white water fountains but just because something is not written on a sign or on the law books doesn't mean its not written in the consciousness of the people. The biggest reason for this in my opinion is the historical obfuscation. Sure, we kind of studied the Civil Rights movement but we never really learned about Dr. King's deeper message, only that he "had a dream", and then segregation ended and everything was "normal" after that. It wasn't until years after graduating that I began reading Dr. King's speeches that and the underlying causes of the racial divisions finally made sense, allowing me to let go of the anger I had held from bad experiences related to the racial animosity. http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/doc_address_at_the_conclusion_of_selma_march.1.html http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentse...
  - michaelbuddy 11y ago
    So you're blaming the 60s, 70s and 80s for kids who grew up in the 2000s and don't code now? Because I don't know a single person who is in the field of IT whose parents were in IT. Positions barely existed until the 90s. No one has yet explained why even segregation today in some part of the country is affecting ethnic groups NOT interested or apt in coding to the level of getting the jobs.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >So you're blaming the 60s, 70s and 80s for kids who grew up in the 2000s and don't code now? Those kids didn't develop in vitro in some abstract new environment. They had parents, grandparents, neighborhoods, school districts, schools, family fortune (or lack thereof) potential employers (themselves born in the 60' 60's and 80s) etc. Anybody who thinks those things don't affect the nurture, career and prospects of a young person, or that those things change in a few decades, are deluded. Usually the same people also fail to understand the notion of statistics, and think that outliers that beat the odds and rose to become successful entrepreneurs or whatever from such upbringings translate to "it's equally easy for whites and blacks to become successful, here, this kid proved it, but most blacks are just lazy". In other words people who don't understand that most white people play life in easy mode, where most blacks do not -- and point to some "hard mode" winners as if that means everything is equally easy for everybody. http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate
- mlkjr 11y ago
  How would you know if it is a ghost or not? Would statistics help? I don't think there any tangible statistics on ghosts, are there?
  - michaelbuddy 11y ago
    There's no reliable examples. That's what I'm saying, people say "Systemic" when really it means nothing when you drill down to the meat of how things are. In fact when you look closer you find the more forces and initiatives towards inclusion within the system. For example for years we've had minority and female only STEM initiatives. Both on their own, and included within other organizations as part of greater educational pushes.
jimmywanger 11y ago
Occam's razor. Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  Occam's razor. Is there likely to be numerous smaller problems that are easy to ignore in all different areas of life, or few large easy to spot problems in one area of life?
- whitegrape 11y ago
  There's an even simpler explanation you get when you control for upbringing. But instead we prefer Occam's Butterknife to the razor. (https://polymathblogger.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/occams-butterknife/ https://polymathblogger.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/occams-butt...)
- abrahamepton 11y ago
  Having lived in our society and been educated by our schools: Yeah, there are societal problems and educational problems. Big, big, big problems. Having gotten my ass kicked intellectually repeatedly by black and hispanic students: no, those backgrounds are not a liability.
  - whitegrape 11y ago
    An average IQ one std dev below other groups does not preclude the existence of individuals who have an IQ two std devs above an average member of the other group. https://antidem.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/glantons-law/ https://antidem.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/glantons-law/
- zephharben 11y ago
  You nailed it - there is a problem in our entire society and schooling system.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach? The two are not mutually exclusive. I would argue that a very significant part of the problem that Blacks and Hispanics face (besides simple discrimination on the part of people in positions of power -- which is very real, as studies of responses to applications in various context from people with stereotypically Black or Hispanic names vs. otherwise identical applications without that feature) is attitudes toward societal institutions and mainstream culture in their respective subcultures that are a direct product of problems in the broader society (including the schooling system), both currently and over the past several centuries (the longer time especially for black subculture) including, over much of that time, overt de jure subjugation and exclusion (which while it didn't directly impact young people today, is recent enough that lots of them have living relatives who did directly experience it) followed by covert (but still present, see earlier comment about applications) discrimination and neglect. Arguing over whether A or B is the problem is pointless when A causes B which then contributes back to A.

michaelbuddy 11y ago

what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.

coldtea 11y ago
You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.
- mlkjr 11y ago
  Having grown up in the Birmingham, Alabama public education system I can tell you segregation never really ended. Sure there aren't signs designating black and white water fountains but just because something is not written on a sign or on the law books doesn't mean its not written in the consciousness of the people. The biggest reason for this in my opinion is the historical obfuscation. Sure, we kind of studied the Civil Rights movement but we never really learned about Dr. King's deeper message, only that he "had a dream", and then segregation ended and everything was "normal" after that. It wasn't until years after graduating that I began reading Dr. King's speeches that and the underlying causes of the racial divisions finally made sense, allowing me to let go of the anger I had held from bad experiences related to the racial animosity. http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/doc_address_at_the_conclusion_of_selma_march.1.html http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentse...
- michaelbuddy 11y ago
  So you're blaming the 60s, 70s and 80s for kids who grew up in the 2000s and don't code now? Because I don't know a single person who is in the field of IT whose parents were in IT. Positions barely existed until the 90s. No one has yet explained why even segregation today in some part of the country is affecting ethnic groups NOT interested or apt in coding to the level of getting the jobs.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >So you're blaming the 60s, 70s and 80s for kids who grew up in the 2000s and don't code now? Those kids didn't develop in vitro in some abstract new environment. They had parents, grandparents, neighborhoods, school districts, schools, family fortune (or lack thereof) potential employers (themselves born in the 60' 60's and 80s) etc. Anybody who thinks those things don't affect the nurture, career and prospects of a young person, or that those things change in a few decades, are deluded. Usually the same people also fail to understand the notion of statistics, and think that outliers that beat the odds and rose to become successful entrepreneurs or whatever from such upbringings translate to "it's equally easy for whites and blacks to become successful, here, this kid proved it, but most blacks are just lazy". In other words people who don't understand that most white people play life in easy mode, where most blacks do not -- and point to some "hard mode" winners as if that means everything is equally easy for everybody. http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate
mlkjr 11y ago
How would you know if it is a ghost or not? Would statistics help? I don't think there any tangible statistics on ghosts, are there?
- michaelbuddy 11y ago
  There's no reliable examples. That's what I'm saying, people say "Systemic" when really it means nothing when you drill down to the meat of how things are. In fact when you look closer you find the more forces and initiatives towards inclusion within the system. For example for years we've had minority and female only STEM initiatives. Both on their own, and included within other organizations as part of greater educational pushes.

jimmywanger 11y ago

Occam's razor. Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach?

Lawtonfogle 11y ago
Occam's razor. Is there likely to be numerous smaller problems that are easy to ignore in all different areas of life, or few large easy to spot problems in one area of life?
whitegrape 11y ago
There's an even simpler explanation you get when you control for upbringing. But instead we prefer Occam's Butterknife to the razor. (https://polymathblogger.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/occams-butterknife/ https://polymathblogger.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/occams-butt...)
abrahamepton 11y ago
Having lived in our society and been educated by our schools: Yeah, there are societal problems and educational problems. Big, big, big problems. Having gotten my ass kicked intellectually repeatedly by black and hispanic students: no, those backgrounds are not a liability.
- whitegrape 11y ago
  An average IQ one std dev below other groups does not preclude the existence of individuals who have an IQ two std devs above an average member of the other group. https://antidem.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/glantons-law/ https://antidem.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/glantons-law/
zephharben 11y ago
You nailed it - there is a problem in our entire society and schooling system.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Is there a problem in our entire society and schooling system, or are Black and Hispanic backgrounds a liability because of the views and attitudes they have/teach? The two are not mutually exclusive. I would argue that a very significant part of the problem that Blacks and Hispanics face (besides simple discrimination on the part of people in positions of power -- which is very real, as studies of responses to applications in various context from people with stereotypically Black or Hispanic names vs. otherwise identical applications without that feature) is attitudes toward societal institutions and mainstream culture in their respective subcultures that are a direct product of problems in the broader society (including the schooling system), both currently and over the past several centuries (the longer time especially for black subculture) including, over much of that time, overt de jure subjugation and exclusion (which while it didn't directly impact young people today, is recent enough that lots of them have living relatives who did directly experience it) followed by covert (but still present, see earlier comment about applications) discrimination and neglect. Arguing over whether A or B is the problem is pointless when A causes B which then contributes back to A.