5 ms·

What This Medieval Wine Jug Can Tell Us About Islam

26 points by Thevet 11y ago

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Do you think that maybe Thomas Aquinas might not be an unbiased source in this matter.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- empath75 11y ago
  This is not really the appropriate forum for that kind of thing.
gjkood 11y ago
"The Rubaiyat" [1] by Omar Khayyam [2] has numerable references to wine. Omar Khayyam was one of the great Islamic Scientist-Scholars and a famed son of Khorasan. [1] http://classics.mit.edu/Khayyam/rubaiyat.html http://classics.mit.edu/Khayyam/rubaiyat.html [2] http://www.muslimheritage.com/article/‘umar-al-khayyam-omar-khayyam http://www.muslimheritage.com/article/‘umar-al-khayyam-omar-...
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  Khayyam was also a skeptic and had very hostile attitudes to all religions at various times. Very, very far from being orthodox in any sense.
  - acqq 11y ago
    And very, very far from being supported by the Islamic clergy of today. Khayyam died in 12th century. What's with some nine hundred years afterwards? What's with the state today with to which we have to know? Whoever wants to argue what "Islam is" must observe what the clergy and "the learned" promote today and since oil rich countries started to pump their money all through the world (billions and billions), hijabs, jihad and sharia are more popular than ever. The ideal becomes exactly a country like Saudi Arabia with prohibition, beheadings and hand cutting. Because they are the most capable in spreading their values, and they do support their values with the quotes from the holy texts. You can't "catch them" in "misquoting." That's the dangerous development, compared with what was common in a lot of mostly Muslim countries until just some decades ago. And also the role of the US in that development is far from positive (as documented by the Washington Post): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/08/the-taliban-indoctrinates-kids-with-jihadist-textbooks-paid-for-by-the-u-s/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/08... "The Taliban indoctrinates kids with jihadist textbooks paid for by the U.S." And nobody should pretend all this doesn't exist. Especially not based on what was centuries ago: we have to take the stance to what is happening now. Anyway, Omar Khayyam was a fantastic poet. Absolutely joy to read, but don't expect that many of those who are religious today would share his views.
sandworm101 11y ago
The OP has fallen into the common trap of applying the Christian concept of sin to the Islamic context. Christianity is generally a binary system of sins. Things are forbidden or they are not. Islamic is full of more subtle interpretations. Things are good and bad, some worse or better than others. This allows for contradictions, such as an Islamic wine jug. I chalk this up to how the hadith were compiled. This medieval jug can also no more tell us about "Islam" than a pot from 13th century Ireland can tell us about Lutheranism . At best they are tiny snapshots within an epic history.
- vacri 11y ago
  The jug can at least tell us "people sometimes wrote things about Allah on jugs like this". Your Irish pot predates Lutheranism by three centuries.
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  It can tell us about different "Islams" at different times and places. It's analogous to studying clerical marriage in the Medieval Western Church.
- Florin_Andrei 11y ago
  > I chalk this up to how the hadith were compiled. What do you mean?
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    >> Each hadith is based on two parts, a chain of narrators reporting the hadith (isnad), and the text itself (matn). Individual hadith are classified by Muslim clerics and jurists as sahih ("authentic"), hasan ("good") or da'if ("weak"). However, there is no overall agreement: different groups and different individual scholars may classify a hadith differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith The result is a very large body of knowledge, on the order of 10k, some accepted as trustworthy and others not. The Christian tradition has seen various books included or excluded from the bible, with anything not making the cut deemed heretical. Everything included became sacrosanct and above debate. The more varied approach applied to hadith spills over into Islamic culture, especially law. Arguably, current Islamic extremist movements are a fusion of Islamic rules interpreted through a very Christian mindset: in or out, forbidden or not, with little room for debate. They focus only on the Koran, as Christians historically focused only on the bible.
actionwords 11y ago
A medieval camel found in Austria will tell you more about Islam. It came to it's present location when Islam almost conquered Europe.. for the second time. http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/europe/austria-camel-ottoman/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/europe/austria-camel-ottoman/i...
contingencies 11y ago
Pfft. Islam is way broader than medieval Iran, but even in medieval Iran people were good at wine. Hopefully this article does bust some really ignorant stereotypes, but it doesn't go far enough. Shiraz, anyone?
known 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_history

26 points by Thevet 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Do you think that maybe Thomas Aquinas might not be an unbiased source in this matter.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
empath75 11y ago
This is not really the appropriate forum for that kind of thing.

gjkood 11y ago

"The Rubaiyat" [1] by Omar Khayyam [2] has numerable references to wine. Omar Khayyam was one of the great Islamic Scientist-Scholars and a famed son of Khorasan. [1] http://classics.mit.edu/Khayyam/rubaiyat.html http://classics.mit.edu/Khayyam/rubaiyat.html [2] http://www.muslimheritage.com/article/‘umar-al-khayyam-omar-khayyam http://www.muslimheritage.com/article/‘umar-al-khayyam-omar-...

ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
Khayyam was also a skeptic and had very hostile attitudes to all religions at various times. Very, very far from being orthodox in any sense.
- acqq 11y ago
  And very, very far from being supported by the Islamic clergy of today. Khayyam died in 12th century. What's with some nine hundred years afterwards? What's with the state today with to which we have to know? Whoever wants to argue what "Islam is" must observe what the clergy and "the learned" promote today and since oil rich countries started to pump their money all through the world (billions and billions), hijabs, jihad and sharia are more popular than ever. The ideal becomes exactly a country like Saudi Arabia with prohibition, beheadings and hand cutting. Because they are the most capable in spreading their values, and they do support their values with the quotes from the holy texts. You can't "catch them" in "misquoting." That's the dangerous development, compared with what was common in a lot of mostly Muslim countries until just some decades ago. And also the role of the US in that development is far from positive (as documented by the Washington Post): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/08/the-taliban-indoctrinates-kids-with-jihadist-textbooks-paid-for-by-the-u-s/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/08... "The Taliban indoctrinates kids with jihadist textbooks paid for by the U.S." And nobody should pretend all this doesn't exist. Especially not based on what was centuries ago: we have to take the stance to what is happening now. Anyway, Omar Khayyam was a fantastic poet. Absolutely joy to read, but don't expect that many of those who are religious today would share his views.

sandworm101 11y ago

The OP has fallen into the common trap of applying the Christian concept of sin to the Islamic context. Christianity is generally a binary system of sins. Things are forbidden or they are not. Islamic is full of more subtle interpretations. Things are good and bad, some worse or better than others. This allows for contradictions, such as an Islamic wine jug. I chalk this up to how the hadith were compiled. This medieval jug can also no more tell us about "Islam" than a pot from 13th century Ireland can tell us about Lutheranism . At best they are tiny snapshots within an epic history.

vacri 11y ago
The jug can at least tell us "people sometimes wrote things about Allah on jugs like this". Your Irish pot predates Lutheranism by three centuries.
ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
It can tell us about different "Islams" at different times and places. It's analogous to studying clerical marriage in the Medieval Western Church.
Florin_Andrei 11y ago
> I chalk this up to how the hadith were compiled. What do you mean?
- sandworm101 11y ago
  >> Each hadith is based on two parts, a chain of narrators reporting the hadith (isnad), and the text itself (matn). Individual hadith are classified by Muslim clerics and jurists as sahih ("authentic"), hasan ("good") or da'if ("weak"). However, there is no overall agreement: different groups and different individual scholars may classify a hadith differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith The result is a very large body of knowledge, on the order of 10k, some accepted as trustworthy and others not. The Christian tradition has seen various books included or excluded from the bible, with anything not making the cut deemed heretical. Everything included became sacrosanct and above debate. The more varied approach applied to hadith spills over into Islamic culture, especially law. Arguably, current Islamic extremist movements are a fusion of Islamic rules interpreted through a very Christian mindset: in or out, forbidden or not, with little room for debate. They focus only on the Koran, as Christians historically focused only on the bible.

actionwords 11y ago

A medieval camel found in Austria will tell you more about Islam. It came to it's present location when Islam almost conquered Europe.. for the second time. http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/europe/austria-camel-ottoman/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/europe/austria-camel-ottoman/i...

contingencies 11y ago

Pfft. Islam is way broader than medieval Iran, but even in medieval Iran people were good at wine. Hopefully this article does bust some really ignorant stereotypes, but it doesn't go far enough. Shiraz, anyone?

known 11y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_history