9 ms·

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is fin

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

imglorp 11y ago
> If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. That little bit there is called democracy. Without transparency, it's called fascism.
- deleted 11y ago
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eis 11y ago
And the issue with that is...? "complain" just means negative feedback which should be taken into consideration since a draft is a version which is still being worked on. Isn't that how it should really be?
- TheLogothete 11y ago
  Complain is a very mild word. Proposals will be shred to pieces by local politicians looking for quick score and media always on the look for a sensation. Nothing will ever get signed if proposals are made public.
  - eis 11y ago
    If you can shred something to pieces then maybe it shouldn't be signed? And if it was good then they wouldn't be able to shred it to pieces. Sounds like you'd be afraid of public discourse.
    - Loughla 11y ago
      That is unbelievably naive, or immature. One of the two, I'm not sure which. Public discourse isn't the same as what happens when the media spins a narrative about a piece of legislation. You and I both know they don't need truth to make a story. And small-time politicians looking to make a name for themselves will always impede the process, regardless of whether or not it's a good process. Having the public voice their dissent is good. Letting a piece of legislation get ripped to shreds because some small-name representative has a hard-on for one of the bill's co-creators is not.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - eis 11y ago
        So? Let the publicity stunts happen. You don't have to pay too much attention to them. You can take valid critizism on board. Look, the thing has to be made public to be voted upon anyways and at that point the small time poltician with a hard-on as you put it can also start his show. You shouldn't be afraid that some idiots talk crap about something you work on if you really believe in it. Just follow through and see if it gets public support in the end or not.
        TheLogothete 11y ago
        You just completely ignored how the real world works. It might seem sound and logical in your head - and to be honest, it is - but it is just not how it works out in reality. You seem to think we live in this perfect world where only rational things happen and everyone is well read and educated. Unfortunately, we do not and please open your eyes already. Thank you.
        eis 11y ago
        So can you tell me with some proper arguments why what I said doesn't work? I'd be more likely to believe you if you said more than "this is not how the real world works". Thanks.
        11y ago
deleted 11y ago
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zouhair 11y ago
> If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. You say this like it is something bad. That's the point of transparency. It's like that old comic I just remembered, it depicts a guy in a ladder painting "Cofee" sign for a coffee shop and below him the owner is looking up at the typo and frowning and the painter said: "Jeez man, at least wait until it dries out!".
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. Well yeah. Treaties that run against the interests of the people are supposed to be avoided, not shoe-horned through.
alanwatts 11y ago
>If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. Yeah, that's the point in having drafts, so you can revise them based on feedback from the stakeholders.
- bediger4000 11y ago
  Make no mistake, "the people" aren't stakeholders in treaties like ACTA, TTIP and TPP. Corporations are the stakeholders.
dragonwriter 11y ago
Yeah, the whole point about popular sovereignty is that people get to complain -- and have their complaints feed into the process of making rules which will bind them. So, people getting to complain while the deals is being negotiated about draft terms that bother them is a feature, not a bug.

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

imglorp 11y ago

> If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. That little bit there is called democracy. Without transparency, it's called fascism.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

eis 11y ago

And the issue with that is...? "complain" just means negative feedback which should be taken into consideration since a draft is a version which is still being worked on. Isn't that how it should really be?

TheLogothete 11y ago
Complain is a very mild word. Proposals will be shred to pieces by local politicians looking for quick score and media always on the look for a sensation. Nothing will ever get signed if proposals are made public.
- eis 11y ago
  If you can shred something to pieces then maybe it shouldn't be signed? And if it was good then they wouldn't be able to shred it to pieces. Sounds like you'd be afraid of public discourse.
  - Loughla 11y ago
    That is unbelievably naive, or immature. One of the two, I'm not sure which. Public discourse isn't the same as what happens when the media spins a narrative about a piece of legislation. You and I both know they don't need truth to make a story. And small-time politicians looking to make a name for themselves will always impede the process, regardless of whether or not it's a good process. Having the public voice their dissent is good. Letting a piece of legislation get ripped to shreds because some small-name representative has a hard-on for one of the bill's co-creators is not.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - eis 11y ago
      So? Let the publicity stunts happen. You don't have to pay too much attention to them. You can take valid critizism on board. Look, the thing has to be made public to be voted upon anyways and at that point the small time poltician with a hard-on as you put it can also start his show. You shouldn't be afraid that some idiots talk crap about something you work on if you really believe in it. Just follow through and see if it gets public support in the end or not.
      - TheLogothete 11y ago
        You just completely ignored how the real world works. It might seem sound and logical in your head - and to be honest, it is - but it is just not how it works out in reality. You seem to think we live in this perfect world where only rational things happen and everyone is well read and educated. Unfortunately, we do not and please open your eyes already. Thank you.
        eis 11y ago
        So can you tell me with some proper arguments why what I said doesn't work? I'd be more likely to believe you if you said more than "this is not how the real world works". Thanks.
      - 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

zouhair 11y ago

> If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. You say this like it is something bad. That's the point of transparency. It's like that old comic I just remembered, it depicts a guy in a ladder painting "Cofee" sign for a coffee shop and below him the owner is looking up at the typo and frowning and the painter said: "Jeez man, at least wait until it dries out!".

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

>If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. Well yeah. Treaties that run against the interests of the people are supposed to be avoided, not shoe-horned through.

alanwatts 11y ago

>If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized. Yeah, that's the point in having drafts, so you can revise them based on feedback from the stakeholders.

bediger4000 11y ago
Make no mistake, "the people" aren't stakeholders in treaties like ACTA, TTIP and TPP. Corporations are the stakeholders.

dragonwriter 11y ago

Yeah, the whole point about popular sovereignty is that people get to complain -- and have their complaints feed into the process of making rules which will bind them. So, people getting to complain while the deals is being negotiated about draft terms that bother them is a feature, not a bug.