5 ms·

>programmers pull $100k My understanding is $110k is an unsurprising entry-level salary; people who are mid-career would be making quite a bit more.

withdavidli 11y ago
There is something really off about these numbers. unless i'm totally off about how many entry level employees are in the area vs mid/senior level employees. Since this data is collected by people reporting their salaries, I think that people that are more junior are more likely using and submitting their salary info to the site. This will skew salary data toward entry level employees. I also see Glassdoor is accounting for stocks now, though that's not factored into avg salary, but total comp. Looking at some companies this raise compensation by ~$50k.
- pmiller2 11y ago
  I would say that counts, provided it's actual stock and not options. If it's actual stock, it's liquid, which makes it almost as good as cash for most purposes.
  - withdavidli 11y ago
    RSUs and other post ipo options should definitely count cause you can sell it right after they vest, basically treating it like cash. What I'm saying is that Glassdoor does not count it towards their avg salary number. If you click a salary for a role at a certain company it'll give you a different breakdown showing Avg Salary, and one showing Total Comp that includes salary + bonus + stock
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    RSUs will typically all vest after a certain period of time, depending on the company (4-5 years?). But your mortgage is for 30 years. I wouldn't count that stock towards your "yearly income".
    - tamana 11y ago
      RSUs refresh, or employees go to another employer for new RSUs.
    - withdavidli 11y ago
      they vest over a period of time, not usually all at once. my company does it evenly over 4 years with a 1 year cliff. other companies can have it skewed towards the latter 4 years. employees do get refreshers as well. so if it vests equally over a certain amount of years, totally should count that portion towards yearly income. In your analogy, it's like counting how much you owe in mortgage payments every year towards yearly expenses.
vostok 11y ago
We're just talking about entry-level salary, right? I've heard really high numbers for first year total compensation.
TuringNYC 11y ago
Some of these entry level "compensation" figures include illiquid stock. Ask HR what the outstanding number of shares are and you get a blank face. Other stock classes? Silence. Liquidity preferences? Secret. The real worth is zero, yet they get treated like $30k on top of salary.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- superuser2 11y ago
  I am specifically talking about base cash salary here, but point taken.
gambiting 11y ago
A bit off topic, but I just cannot grasp those US salaries for programmers. Even for UK, that would be insanely high, with the exception of maybe london, but if you work anywhere else the number is 1/3 of this. Average junior programmer salaries in the North East of England are around ~$35k/year, and I know seniors with 15-20 years of experience and they make 60k pounds/year(so ~85k USD/year). I have friends working as C++ programmers in Krakow, Poland, and they make ~$20k/year(bear in mind that it's extremely good salary there, as houses rarely cost more than $100k, in fact you could buy land and build a house for less). I just cannot grasp how an entry level position would pay $100k/year.
- seren 11y ago
  It is hard to compare European salaries to their US counterpart. You have to take account they have much less holidays on average, you have also some sort of "free healthcare" that is not tied to your job, a state pension plan, access to some cheap higher level education for your children. In my country, between what is paid by the employer and what I actually get there is a factor of 2 to pay for all the "free" service aforementioned.
  - refurb 11y ago
    I would be careful with that comparison. Many higher-wage US jobs get much more vacation than the minimum 2 weeks, health insurance is paid for by the company (employee only pay ~10% of premium), you get a pension (Social Security) and you're kids can go to a state school with subsidized tuition (albetit, nowhere near as cheap as Europe).
    - seren 11y ago
      That is why I mentioned "not tied to your job" which seems, from my very European viewpoint, a bit saner. I heard at least one horror story of an expat who went to work in the US, got a cancer, lost its job, and then had to come back because he was totally uncovered. I don't know the system well enough to determine if it was a total lack of precaution (and luck) on his side, or that was how the system was supposed to work.
ryandrake 11y ago
According to Glassdoor[1] and Payscale[2] the average salary across all (not just entry-level) software engineers in San Francisco is $103K. So I doubt $110k is even close to a normal entry-level salary. 1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... 2: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-Francisco-CA http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...
- tamana 11y ago
  That ignores substantial publicly-traded equity and cash bonuses

withdavidli 11y ago

There is something really off about these numbers. unless i'm totally off about how many entry level employees are in the area vs mid/senior level employees. Since this data is collected by people reporting their salaries, I think that people that are more junior are more likely using and submitting their salary info to the site. This will skew salary data toward entry level employees. I also see Glassdoor is accounting for stocks now, though that's not factored into avg salary, but total comp. Looking at some companies this raise compensation by ~$50k.

pmiller2 11y ago
I would say that counts, provided it's actual stock and not options. If it's actual stock, it's liquid, which makes it almost as good as cash for most purposes.
- withdavidli 11y ago
  RSUs and other post ipo options should definitely count cause you can sell it right after they vest, basically treating it like cash. What I'm saying is that Glassdoor does not count it towards their avg salary number. If you click a salary for a role at a certain company it'll give you a different breakdown showing Avg Salary, and one showing Total Comp that includes salary + bonus + stock
- ryandrake 11y ago
  RSUs will typically all vest after a certain period of time, depending on the company (4-5 years?). But your mortgage is for 30 years. I wouldn't count that stock towards your "yearly income".
  - tamana 11y ago
    RSUs refresh, or employees go to another employer for new RSUs.
  - withdavidli 11y ago
    they vest over a period of time, not usually all at once. my company does it evenly over 4 years with a 1 year cliff. other companies can have it skewed towards the latter 4 years. employees do get refreshers as well. so if it vests equally over a certain amount of years, totally should count that portion towards yearly income. In your analogy, it's like counting how much you owe in mortgage payments every year towards yearly expenses.

vostok 11y ago

We're just talking about entry-level salary, right? I've heard really high numbers for first year total compensation.

TuringNYC 11y ago

Some of these entry level "compensation" figures include illiquid stock. Ask HR what the outstanding number of shares are and you get a blank face. Other stock classes? Silence. Liquidity preferences? Secret. The real worth is zero, yet they get treated like $30k on top of salary.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
superuser2 11y ago
I am specifically talking about base cash salary here, but point taken.

gambiting 11y ago

A bit off topic, but I just cannot grasp those US salaries for programmers. Even for UK, that would be insanely high, with the exception of maybe london, but if you work anywhere else the number is 1/3 of this. Average junior programmer salaries in the North East of England are around ~$35k/year, and I know seniors with 15-20 years of experience and they make 60k pounds/year(so ~85k USD/year). I have friends working as C++ programmers in Krakow, Poland, and they make ~$20k/year(bear in mind that it's extremely good salary there, as houses rarely cost more than $100k, in fact you could buy land and build a house for less). I just cannot grasp how an entry level position would pay $100k/year.

seren 11y ago
It is hard to compare European salaries to their US counterpart. You have to take account they have much less holidays on average, you have also some sort of "free healthcare" that is not tied to your job, a state pension plan, access to some cheap higher level education for your children. In my country, between what is paid by the employer and what I actually get there is a factor of 2 to pay for all the "free" service aforementioned.
- refurb 11y ago
  I would be careful with that comparison. Many higher-wage US jobs get much more vacation than the minimum 2 weeks, health insurance is paid for by the company (employee only pay ~10% of premium), you get a pension (Social Security) and you're kids can go to a state school with subsidized tuition (albetit, nowhere near as cheap as Europe).
  - seren 11y ago
    That is why I mentioned "not tied to your job" which seems, from my very European viewpoint, a bit saner. I heard at least one horror story of an expat who went to work in the US, got a cancer, lost its job, and then had to come back because he was totally uncovered. I don't know the system well enough to determine if it was a total lack of precaution (and luck) on his side, or that was how the system was supposed to work.

ryandrake 11y ago

According to Glassdoor[1] and Payscale[2] the average salary across all (not just entry-level) software engineers in San Francisco is $103K. So I doubt $110k is even close to a normal entry-level salary. 1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... 2: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-Francisco-CA http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

tamana 11y ago
That ignores substantial publicly-traded equity and cash bonuses