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That was a fairly naive perspective you had. Capitalism, money, and strong puritan morals are at the very heart of America's culture (that is changing, slowly)

That was a fairly naive perspective you had. Capitalism, money, and strong puritan morals are at the very heart of America's culture (that is changing, slowly). Of course it was going to get picked up by companies and exploited for every penny its worth. Of course there are going to be sensational moral debates that spiral out of control and detract from the issue. This isn't the Netherlands. And since when did one country's policies blindly apply to another?

karmelapple 11y ago
Alcohol is a controlled substance that also has huge industry behind it, both in the USA and abroad. Why would one expect the same desires that drive alcohol's mass marketing and consumption to not be present for marijuana? The side effects are certainly different, but they both affect your mental state, so comparing these seems pretty reasonable.
- jernfrost 11y ago
  That is not true. Perhaps I have been naive about the American result but as a Norwegian I am used to a very controlled sale of alcohol. Alcohol advertisement is banned and any alcohol above 5% is sold in government monopolies. This is quite different from e.g. the Canadian liquor monopoly which the government seems to treat as a cash cow. In Norway they are really not trying to push alcohol on your or increase sales. Instead they focus on customer satisfaction and teaching customers what wine goes with what food and things like that. In the Netherlands there might not be a monopoly on drug sales, but the coffeeshops are generally small operations without a huge presence. There are no advertisement. So yes I have experience alternatives which don't treat these industries as big money operations. And perhaps I naively thought that was possible in the US, forgetting that Americans tend to think very big when it comes to business.
  - karmelapple 11y ago
    What precisely was not true from my post? Alcohol has a huge industry behind it in the USA. And who bought Budweiser-creator Anheiser-Busch, one of the USA's largest beer companies? InBev, based in Belgium. Alcohol consumption per capita is higher in plenty of countries in Europe compared to the USA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol... Although I can't find numbers on international marketing expenditures for alcohol, personal experience informs me that most pubs in Germany, and plenty in Ireland and Austria, have a sign from a beer company hanging outside the front. That's actually something the USA doesn't have; neon signs are in some pubs' windows, but not every single one like I'd see in Germany. That sign outside the bar is most definitely marketing, even if it's less glitzy than American alcohol TV ads. I then asked a question about why, and you answered - thank you! I didn't know alcohol ads (do you mean on tv, in print, on the radio, online...?) were banned in the Netherlands. I also must ask for clarification: because I can't sense the tone with which yore typing these words, it seems like you're using the word naive in a way that suggests you are simply disappointed that the USA is not behaving like your country. Am I interpreting that correctly? Americans do think big when it comes to business... as do many other countries. The Forbes international 500 [1] has companies from all over, and the USA does not dominate. In fact, the Netherlands shares the number 3 slot with the UK. I hope you don't naively think businesses want less success outside the USA; they may want less growth, though, but the Forbes top 10 global would seem to say otherwise. Ambition for business is everywhere in the world, although the USA does indeed have its share of large companies. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Global_500 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Global_500
jernfrost 11y ago
Hehehe well yeah maybe I had naive hopes. I honestly had not thought a lot about how this would turn out in the US. The US is following such a different trajectory from what I am used to in politics in Norway where I am from. Pot isn't legal in Norway either but I found the laws extremely draconian in the US. The war on drugs really turned me off prohibiting drug sales. But what I find odd is that America seems to be moving from one extreme to another so quickly. Here in Norway pot is not legal, but there is a gradual sort of decriminalization with respect to drugs. They are still keen to point out it is illegal but police reactions to abuse is quite mild. It is mainly the big sellers they are going after. I guess naively I had expected the US to first change their laws to be milder long before any full legalization happens. But I think a major difference is that in Norway a lot of the liberalization is driven by the legal profession and actors rather than by some popular opinion in the population. Citizens aren't really favoring legalization the way Americans are, but nor are they really favoring a harsh response either. It is people working close to the issue that typically push for some form of legalization. I think the unique aspect in the US is legalization happening in the context of a very polarized population. Where many are like, just let people do whatever they dam please and others are very moralistic and want to keep going with a sort of war on drugs. This seems like an explosive combination. You might ask why do I care at all. Well American has tremendous influence on the rest of the world. I fear that a failed legalization experiment in the US would set back legalization everywhere else. People will point to the US as a horror example. The US is already used like that as a way to scare people away from any sort of privatized hospitals or clinics.

karmelapple 11y ago

Alcohol is a controlled substance that also has huge industry behind it, both in the USA and abroad. Why would one expect the same desires that drive alcohol's mass marketing and consumption to not be present for marijuana? The side effects are certainly different, but they both affect your mental state, so comparing these seems pretty reasonable.

jernfrost 11y ago
That is not true. Perhaps I have been naive about the American result but as a Norwegian I am used to a very controlled sale of alcohol. Alcohol advertisement is banned and any alcohol above 5% is sold in government monopolies. This is quite different from e.g. the Canadian liquor monopoly which the government seems to treat as a cash cow. In Norway they are really not trying to push alcohol on your or increase sales. Instead they focus on customer satisfaction and teaching customers what wine goes with what food and things like that. In the Netherlands there might not be a monopoly on drug sales, but the coffeeshops are generally small operations without a huge presence. There are no advertisement. So yes I have experience alternatives which don't treat these industries as big money operations. And perhaps I naively thought that was possible in the US, forgetting that Americans tend to think very big when it comes to business.
- karmelapple 11y ago
  What precisely was not true from my post? Alcohol has a huge industry behind it in the USA. And who bought Budweiser-creator Anheiser-Busch, one of the USA's largest beer companies? InBev, based in Belgium. Alcohol consumption per capita is higher in plenty of countries in Europe compared to the USA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol... Although I can't find numbers on international marketing expenditures for alcohol, personal experience informs me that most pubs in Germany, and plenty in Ireland and Austria, have a sign from a beer company hanging outside the front. That's actually something the USA doesn't have; neon signs are in some pubs' windows, but not every single one like I'd see in Germany. That sign outside the bar is most definitely marketing, even if it's less glitzy than American alcohol TV ads. I then asked a question about why, and you answered - thank you! I didn't know alcohol ads (do you mean on tv, in print, on the radio, online...?) were banned in the Netherlands. I also must ask for clarification: because I can't sense the tone with which yore typing these words, it seems like you're using the word naive in a way that suggests you are simply disappointed that the USA is not behaving like your country. Am I interpreting that correctly? Americans do think big when it comes to business... as do many other countries. The Forbes international 500 [1] has companies from all over, and the USA does not dominate. In fact, the Netherlands shares the number 3 slot with the UK. I hope you don't naively think businesses want less success outside the USA; they may want less growth, though, but the Forbes top 10 global would seem to say otherwise. Ambition for business is everywhere in the world, although the USA does indeed have its share of large companies. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Global_500 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Global_500

jernfrost 11y ago

Hehehe well yeah maybe I had naive hopes. I honestly had not thought a lot about how this would turn out in the US. The US is following such a different trajectory from what I am used to in politics in Norway where I am from. Pot isn't legal in Norway either but I found the laws extremely draconian in the US. The war on drugs really turned me off prohibiting drug sales. But what I find odd is that America seems to be moving from one extreme to another so quickly. Here in Norway pot is not legal, but there is a gradual sort of decriminalization with respect to drugs. They are still keen to point out it is illegal but police reactions to abuse is quite mild. It is mainly the big sellers they are going after. I guess naively I had expected the US to first change their laws to be milder long before any full legalization happens. But I think a major difference is that in Norway a lot of the liberalization is driven by the legal profession and actors rather than by some popular opinion in the population. Citizens aren't really favoring legalization the way Americans are, but nor are they really favoring a harsh response either. It is people working close to the issue that typically push for some form of legalization. I think the unique aspect in the US is legalization happening in the context of a very polarized population. Where many are like, just let people do whatever they dam please and others are very moralistic and want to keep going with a sort of war on drugs. This seems like an explosive combination. You might ask why do I care at all. Well American has tremendous influence on the rest of the world. I fear that a failed legalization experiment in the US would set back legalization everywhere else. People will point to the US as a horror example. The US is already used like that as a way to scare people away from any sort of privatized hospitals or clinics.