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Seems awfully silly to ban cactus propagation in order to preserve cacti from extinction. Cows and wheat are in no danger of extinction; a healthy trade in cac

by zeveb 11y ago

Seems awfully silly to ban cactus propagation in order to preserve cacti from extinction. Cows and wheat are in no danger of extinction; a healthy trade in cacti would enhance the survivability of each species.

matt_morgan 11y ago
1) Nowhere in the article is a ban on cactus propagation mentioned. 2) Cows and wheat are nowhere near being wild, free-living species. There's a difference.
Symbiote 11y ago
There may only be a few known plants, and it's likely there's already some in a botanic garden — professionally cared for and available for research, rather than stuffed in a suitcase then hidden in a shed. Several of the cacti mentioned are available commercially, but that's not good enough for these collectors. (Incidentally, collectors also steal plants from botanic gardens.) > Cows and wheat are in no danger of extinction Not necessarily. There's very little genetic diversity in domesticated species, which leaves them susceptible to disease and intolerant of changes to climate etc. The "crop wild relatives" are essential if some disease does appear — as it did for bananas — and threaten to wipe out the domesticated breed/variety.
- hydrogen18 11y ago
  When you say "limited genetic diversity" in reference to a mammal like a cow I am inclined to agree. They reproduce sexually and can gain or lose traits. But I am unsure if you can have a 'wild relative' of a banana as my understanding is every single instance of the plant is just a clone. I might have it wrong however, the plant might be able to undergo sexual reproduction but is propagated by humans cloning it. For example, consider Pando. Apparently the plant could theoretically reproduce sexually but hasn't in thousands of years. No one is even sure if it could be induced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    There's crazy genetics happening here, which I certainly don't understand enough to explain — I'm not a botanist, I just write software for them. But wild bananas do have seeds. There's a picture of the seeds of Musa balbisiana [1], one of the ancestors of cultivated bananas. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_balbisiana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_balbisiana
    - hydrogen18 11y ago
      I agree completely that the wild bananas have seeds. But do domesticated ones even have the structures to pollinate? In any case, with modern tech. we could probably redomesticate bananas in a few years. I'm less bothered by the food implications of bananas dying off than the economic ones. Bananas are big business for some equatorial countries. An upset in the economy usually precedes an upset in the government.
      - nkurz 11y ago
        But do domesticated ones even have the structures to pollinate? Yes, the seeds in Cavendish bananas are rare but viable. There was a Canadian documentary a few years ago that featured a Honduran banana breeder: http://modernfarmer.com/2015/05/review-the-fruit-hunters/ http://modernfarmer.com/2015/05/review-the-fruit-hunters/ And here's a recent PBS segment that covers just banana breeding: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/inside-the-fight-to-save-the-bananas-we-know-and-love/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/inside-the-fight-to-save-the-...
        hydrogen18 11y ago
        That is interesting. If I find a Cavendish with seeds and I plant them, do the fruits of that plant also have seeds?
Grishnakh 11y ago
What are you talking about? No one is talking about banning cactus propagation. You can buy saguaro cacti all you want, you're just not allowed to steal them from government-owned land.
chrismcb 11y ago
If you were to take a seedling from a tree and grow a new one, then great. But when you take the whole tree then it is a problem. Some cacti take a century to grow, and there really aren't very many of them.

by zeveb 11y ago

matt_morgan 11y ago

1) Nowhere in the article is a ban on cactus propagation mentioned. 2) Cows and wheat are nowhere near being wild, free-living species. There's a difference.

Symbiote 11y ago

There may only be a few known plants, and it's likely there's already some in a botanic garden — professionally cared for and available for research, rather than stuffed in a suitcase then hidden in a shed. Several of the cacti mentioned are available commercially, but that's not good enough for these collectors. (Incidentally, collectors also steal plants from botanic gardens.) > Cows and wheat are in no danger of extinction Not necessarily. There's very little genetic diversity in domesticated species, which leaves them susceptible to disease and intolerant of changes to climate etc. The "crop wild relatives" are essential if some disease does appear — as it did for bananas — and threaten to wipe out the domesticated breed/variety.

hydrogen18 11y ago
When you say "limited genetic diversity" in reference to a mammal like a cow I am inclined to agree. They reproduce sexually and can gain or lose traits. But I am unsure if you can have a 'wild relative' of a banana as my understanding is every single instance of the plant is just a clone. I might have it wrong however, the plant might be able to undergo sexual reproduction but is propagated by humans cloning it. For example, consider Pando. Apparently the plant could theoretically reproduce sexually but hasn't in thousands of years. No one is even sure if it could be induced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)
- Symbiote 11y ago
  There's crazy genetics happening here, which I certainly don't understand enough to explain — I'm not a botanist, I just write software for them. But wild bananas do have seeds. There's a picture of the seeds of Musa balbisiana [1], one of the ancestors of cultivated bananas. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_balbisiana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_balbisiana
  - hydrogen18 11y ago
    I agree completely that the wild bananas have seeds. But do domesticated ones even have the structures to pollinate? In any case, with modern tech. we could probably redomesticate bananas in a few years. I'm less bothered by the food implications of bananas dying off than the economic ones. Bananas are big business for some equatorial countries. An upset in the economy usually precedes an upset in the government.
    - nkurz 11y ago
      But do domesticated ones even have the structures to pollinate? Yes, the seeds in Cavendish bananas are rare but viable. There was a Canadian documentary a few years ago that featured a Honduran banana breeder: http://modernfarmer.com/2015/05/review-the-fruit-hunters/ http://modernfarmer.com/2015/05/review-the-fruit-hunters/ And here's a recent PBS segment that covers just banana breeding: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/inside-the-fight-to-save-the-bananas-we-know-and-love/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/inside-the-fight-to-save-the-...
      - hydrogen18 11y ago
        That is interesting. If I find a Cavendish with seeds and I plant them, do the fruits of that plant also have seeds?

Grishnakh 11y ago

What are you talking about? No one is talking about banning cactus propagation. You can buy saguaro cacti all you want, you're just not allowed to steal them from government-owned land.

chrismcb 11y ago

If you were to take a seedling from a tree and grow a new one, then great. But when you take the whole tree then it is a problem. Some cacti take a century to grow, and there really aren't very many of them.