5 ms·

Of course, it's possible to "do things" that don't require a lot of extra things. Writing, walking, meditating, listening to music, reading, making out, drinkin

by mbrock 11y ago

Of course, it's possible to "do things" that don't require a lot of extra things. Writing, walking, meditating, listening to music, reading, making out, drinking tea, running, dancing, making electronic music, math, logic, praying, thinking, debating, making movies with your smartphone (one such movie recently won a documentary award), origami, chess, baking, cooking, lifting at a gym, hackerspace participation, movie club, podcasts, philosophy, swimming, concerts, penmanship, cards, geocaching, juggling oranges, composing, whistling, singing... programming... lots of possibilities. Some people live ostensibly fulfilling lives owning nothing but a robe and a bowl.

scott_s 11y ago
Sure. But there's also a lot of stuff that does require having specialized things. (And a lot of your list actually does.) 0xffff2's point is that stuff is sometimes an enabler, not just a burden. Personally, I don't have much stuff, and I like it that way. But taken to its extreme, and I wouldn't be able to do my favorite things.
- mbrock 11y ago
  Sure. I'm just trying to stimulate the imagination of someone who said they can't imagine a fulfilling life devoid of specialized items.
basseq 11y ago
There's a question of "need", but for most people in first-world countries: - Writing: Pens, Paper, Laptop - Walking: Shoes, Clothing (other than robe) - Music: iPod, Headphones - Reading: Comfortable chair - Drinking Tea: Teapot, china - Running: Specialized shoes and gear - Making Electronica: Synthesizers - Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink - Swimming: Swimsuit, goggles, towel The list goes on, but I'd argue a lot of those DO require extra things (to do well or "right" at least).
- mbrock 11y ago
  Sure, but that's all stuff that would fit in Mr. Sivers' sparse apartment or suitcase.
- trelltron 11y ago
  If you classify 'clothing' and 'shoes' as extra things then sure. Having clothes, some mugs, and a laptop allows him to do anything on that list except penmanship. (And swimming if you don't want to just swim naked)
- coldtea 11y ago
  >but for most people in first-world countries: Running: Specialized shoes and gear (...) Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink "Most people" in first world countries hardly ever run. The official statistics I've seen put "joggers and runners" as 17-18% of the US population, and their definition includes all the "people who went jogging or running within the last 12 months in the United States" -- so in reality, much much less, especially after school/college age. This makes those irrelevant for the 80% and more. In most first world countries, which don't share the US obsession with jogging, that's substantially less. As for "Penmanship, quills and ink", that's not even a thing for the overwhelming majority of the population. At least not since 1950. And "making electronica"? I happen to do that, but I can count on one hand the number of people I know who even know what Roland or Ableton are (apart from collaborators etc). So, I'd hardly call this list representative -- if it said "urban hipster" maybe, but the "for most people" qualifier is totally bogus.
  - basseq 11y ago
    To clarify, when I say "most people", I mean, "most people who are XXers" (where XX is runners, calligraphers, music-makers, etc.). Example: while "most people" don't do penmanship (and don't need the tools of trade, obviously), "most people" who do penmanship will have specialized "gear". That's my point: to have a hobby that's more than a passing interest, "most people" will acquire "stuff" that is critical to that hobby. (Aside: very sad statistic on U.S. runners.)
    - coldtea 11y ago
      In this case, it makes sense. Though one could argue (given the clarification you've made) that said XXers could also embrace a minimalist aesthetic. E.g. electronica makers: do everything in the box, or with very few pieces of kit (minimal gear). Penmanship: just use a couple of really good pens and some select stationary. Etc -- and of course they can keep the "minimal stuff" in all other non XX areas of their lives.
deleted 11y ago
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EC1 11y ago
The difference between those hobbies and the ones 0xffff2 mentioned is these are (most of, not all) hobbies where you consume, whereas his are hobbies where he creates.
- mbrock 11y ago
  Are the two so easy to distinguish? I'd say most of the things I listed aren't easily classifiable as either consuming or producing... and many of them are obviously productive.
0xffff2 11y ago
To take just two examples to add to my list above: Tea drinker -> Three different tea sets, which get used variously depending on what kind of tea I am drinking. baker -> An entire kitchen full of tools. Perhaps I'm taking the article too literally, but if he really only has the things that came with his apartment, so clothes, a laptop, and headphones, he really can't do most of the things on your list, at least not at any kind of level beyond the most casual.
- mbrock 11y ago
  I have some nice tea things too, but when I'm travelling, I make tea with whatever's handy. The thing I mostly use for brewing is a gaiwan, which is basically just a cup with a lid, and that's very easy to substitute. And I used to bake quite a lot of bread using nothing but a couple of mixing bowls and an oven. So not to be argumentative or anything, but beyond clothes and a pair of swim shorts, the only things you need to do everything on my list, and that wouldn't be found in a typical furnished home, are: a decent pen, a deck of cards, and some oranges...
  - CydeWeys 11y ago
    To expand on baking, you're going to need a huge variety of pots, pans, baking sheets, pie pans, cake containers, cupcake trays, mixing bowls, a stand mixer, a handheld mixer, rolling pins, ingredients, etc. I know because my sister is really into baking and she has all of that stuff and more; a whole kitchen full. By the time you're all said and done you're in for over $1,000, and a bunch of cupboards are full. The same applies to a bunch of the rest of hobbies that you mentioned. If you only care about doing something superficially, then sure, you don't need equipment. But to do something well? For example, making good podcasts requires a full setup of audio engineering equipment -- mics, mic stands, various digital audio equipment that plugs into a computer, etc. Similar for running; the people I know that are really into it have all sorts of shoes, GPS running watches, entire wardrobes of running gear (which you NEED to prevent chafing), reflective clothing, heart rate monitors, travel gear to bring with you when traveling for races; the list goes on. I've been into a bunch of hobbies in my life and every single one ended up accumulating significant amounts of gear. Even just being into programming or gaming, I've ended up with various mechanical keyboards, mice, computers, computer parts, displays, and more.

by mbrock 11y ago

scott_s 11y ago

Sure. But there's also a lot of stuff that does require having specialized things. (And a lot of your list actually does.) 0xffff2's point is that stuff is sometimes an enabler, not just a burden. Personally, I don't have much stuff, and I like it that way. But taken to its extreme, and I wouldn't be able to do my favorite things.

mbrock 11y ago
Sure. I'm just trying to stimulate the imagination of someone who said they can't imagine a fulfilling life devoid of specialized items.

basseq 11y ago

There's a question of "need", but for most people in first-world countries: - Writing: Pens, Paper, Laptop - Walking: Shoes, Clothing (other than robe) - Music: iPod, Headphones - Reading: Comfortable chair - Drinking Tea: Teapot, china - Running: Specialized shoes and gear - Making Electronica: Synthesizers - Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink - Swimming: Swimsuit, goggles, towel The list goes on, but I'd argue a lot of those DO require extra things (to do well or "right" at least).

mbrock 11y ago
Sure, but that's all stuff that would fit in Mr. Sivers' sparse apartment or suitcase.
trelltron 11y ago
If you classify 'clothing' and 'shoes' as extra things then sure. Having clothes, some mugs, and a laptop allows him to do anything on that list except penmanship. (And swimming if you don't want to just swim naked)
coldtea 11y ago
>but for most people in first-world countries: Running: Specialized shoes and gear (...) Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink "Most people" in first world countries hardly ever run. The official statistics I've seen put "joggers and runners" as 17-18% of the US population, and their definition includes all the "people who went jogging or running within the last 12 months in the United States" -- so in reality, much much less, especially after school/college age. This makes those irrelevant for the 80% and more. In most first world countries, which don't share the US obsession with jogging, that's substantially less. As for "Penmanship, quills and ink", that's not even a thing for the overwhelming majority of the population. At least not since 1950. And "making electronica"? I happen to do that, but I can count on one hand the number of people I know who even know what Roland or Ableton are (apart from collaborators etc). So, I'd hardly call this list representative -- if it said "urban hipster" maybe, but the "for most people" qualifier is totally bogus.
- basseq 11y ago
  To clarify, when I say "most people", I mean, "most people who are XXers" (where XX is runners, calligraphers, music-makers, etc.). Example: while "most people" don't do penmanship (and don't need the tools of trade, obviously), "most people" who do penmanship will have specialized "gear". That's my point: to have a hobby that's more than a passing interest, "most people" will acquire "stuff" that is critical to that hobby. (Aside: very sad statistic on U.S. runners.)
  - coldtea 11y ago
    In this case, it makes sense. Though one could argue (given the clarification you've made) that said XXers could also embrace a minimalist aesthetic. E.g. electronica makers: do everything in the box, or with very few pieces of kit (minimal gear). Penmanship: just use a couple of really good pens and some select stationary. Etc -- and of course they can keep the "minimal stuff" in all other non XX areas of their lives.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

EC1 11y ago

The difference between those hobbies and the ones 0xffff2 mentioned is these are (most of, not all) hobbies where you consume, whereas his are hobbies where he creates.

mbrock 11y ago
Are the two so easy to distinguish? I'd say most of the things I listed aren't easily classifiable as either consuming or producing... and many of them are obviously productive.

0xffff2 11y ago

To take just two examples to add to my list above: Tea drinker -> Three different tea sets, which get used variously depending on what kind of tea I am drinking. baker -> An entire kitchen full of tools. Perhaps I'm taking the article too literally, but if he really only has the things that came with his apartment, so clothes, a laptop, and headphones, he really can't do most of the things on your list, at least not at any kind of level beyond the most casual.

mbrock 11y ago
I have some nice tea things too, but when I'm travelling, I make tea with whatever's handy. The thing I mostly use for brewing is a gaiwan, which is basically just a cup with a lid, and that's very easy to substitute. And I used to bake quite a lot of bread using nothing but a couple of mixing bowls and an oven. So not to be argumentative or anything, but beyond clothes and a pair of swim shorts, the only things you need to do everything on my list, and that wouldn't be found in a typical furnished home, are: a decent pen, a deck of cards, and some oranges...
- CydeWeys 11y ago
  To expand on baking, you're going to need a huge variety of pots, pans, baking sheets, pie pans, cake containers, cupcake trays, mixing bowls, a stand mixer, a handheld mixer, rolling pins, ingredients, etc. I know because my sister is really into baking and she has all of that stuff and more; a whole kitchen full. By the time you're all said and done you're in for over $1,000, and a bunch of cupboards are full. The same applies to a bunch of the rest of hobbies that you mentioned. If you only care about doing something superficially, then sure, you don't need equipment. But to do something well? For example, making good podcasts requires a full setup of audio engineering equipment -- mics, mic stands, various digital audio equipment that plugs into a computer, etc. Similar for running; the people I know that are really into it have all sorts of shoes, GPS running watches, entire wardrobes of running gear (which you NEED to prevent chafing), reflective clothing, heart rate monitors, travel gear to bring with you when traveling for races; the list goes on. I've been into a bunch of hobbies in my life and every single one ended up accumulating significant amounts of gear. Even just being into programming or gaming, I've ended up with various mechanical keyboards, mice, computers, computer parts, displays, and more.