19 ms·

I like Moxie, but I think he's a little off base here. I exclusively fly first class and I'm not a doughy businessman. I don't even fly for work-just pleasure.

by a2tech 11y ago

I like Moxie, but I think he's a little off base here. I exclusively fly first class and I'm not a doughy businessman. I don't even fly for work-just pleasure. I see the flight as the beginning/ending of my journey and I see no reason to cram my legs into a seat in front of me. I want to have a pleasant flight-not flight designed to cripple me. Also, free alcohol and snacks.

beamatronic 11y ago
In my experience, flying first class is not a 10% premium or a 50% premium over coach, it is a ~2x-3x or more premium. I wouldn't call the alcohol and snacks "free". If you look at it that way, then flying coach gives you a free meal at say, the French Laundry.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  Unfortunately the word "free" has lost all coherent meaning in modern usage. Amazon Prime has "free" shipping, costs $100/year. Your cellphone plan has "free" text messaging, costs $79/month. Your postage has "free" tracking, costs $11. Why, in particular in American, has the word "included" seemingly been vanished from the popular vocabulary to be replaced with "free?" Now what word do we use when something is ACTUALLY free?
  - fluxquanta 11y ago
    "Buy two at half price" doesn't have the same zing as "buy one get one free".
- matthewrudy 11y ago
  I mostly fly between Hong Kong and London. Return flights are usually something like: * economy 900USD * premium 2000USD * business 6,000USD * first 10,000USD So, I always go economy. Not sure it's ever worth a month's wages (after tax) to have a bit of free champagne.
  - crdb 11y ago
    It comes down to the marginal utility of your money vs. the upgrade. For example, I fly Singapore to Tokyo about once or twice a year, sometimes more often, always on Scoot, a budget airline run by Singapore Airlines. Upgrading from economy to ScootBiz costs as little as $80 with their "bid for biz" program. I always "bid for biz" and it's absolutely worth it: early boarding, free food, much more space (for yourself and your carry on), etc. So the marginal utility of the upgrade for me is worth more than $80. At some level of net worth, flying First on a legacy airline to Tokyo, maybe Japan Airlines which I had to take in economy once for $1,500 vs the $200 or so Scoot can go down to, would have more utility to me than the $10,000 extra I'd have to fork out. I don't know what that net worth would be (probably north of 50 million), but I know that past perhaps a few million dollars in liquid assets, I would always fly business even at 3x the cost, and I know plenty of people in that situation doing exactly that. And there's people for whom flying SQ Suites [1] for $30,000 one way is a "discount" from flying the same route privately. [1] reposting because such a fun read: http://dereklow.co/what-its-like-to-fly-the-23000-singapore-airlines-suites-class/ http://dereklow.co/what-its-like-to-fly-the-23000-singapore-...
  - arcticbull 11y ago
    However, while dollar cost to move between classes of service is exponential [1] the number of points required is approximately logarithmic [2]. Even using American's post-devaluation chart (one-way): * economy 35,000 * business 70,000 * first 90,000 So, buy miles when on sale, fly first at a significant discount subject to availability. [1] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=quadratic+fit+%7B1,900%7D,%7B2,2000%7D,%7B3,6000%7D,%7B4.0,10000%7D https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=quadratic+fit+%7B1,900... [2] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=log+fit+%7B1,35000%7D+%7B3,+70000%7D,+%7B4,+90000%7D https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=log+fit+%7B1,35000%7D+...
  - ohjeez 11y ago
    One issue is what your time is worth. Few of us can travel long distances in Coach (say, Phoenix to Europe) without losing at least one day to physical recovery. If I can arrive rested and ready to get to work, that's worth money.
  - 11y ago
- chiph 11y ago
  > ~2x-3x or more premium Sometimes you get lucky. I booked 1st class for my xmas trip home last year, and it was only $100 more than the comfort seat upgrade and 1 checked bag that I was going to spend anyway.
- pc86 11y ago
  > it is a ~2x-3x or more premium This is only my experience on long flights. In 2007 I had a $600 coach seat from NYC to Ireland (may have been a connection I do not recall). The first-class seats were in the upper $4k range. My wife and I fly from the northern east coast of the US to the southern east coast once a year, the tickets are roughly $650 total for coach (including $50/person for the "Comfort +" seats). First class has never risen past ~$950.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    Part of it is that there's a huge delta between international economy and international business/first while the difference in domestic is mostly wider seats, free drinks, and maybe a meal. Hey, I'll take the domestic upgrade but it's not as big a deal as on a long international flight.
- rconti 11y ago
  Business tends to be ~5x over Coach, and First is 10x more than Coach. I'd fly business every single flight I ever took if it was only 2x. IMO the airlines are missing a huge business opportunity to provide all-business-class travel.
tamana 11y ago
I noticed the same as moxoe recently, and it feels different from the past ... Maybe because First is giving way to relatively Lowe priced Business class. There are fewer obviously rich people now , and more obviously wide people.
eitally 11y ago
You get free alcohol & snacks in the economy+ section now, too, btw.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  Depends on the airline. On some airlines the food/drinks assortment is identical between economy and economy+. Just get more legroom/width, sometimes an included checked bag (of $25-50 value), sometimes earlier boarding, and sometimes included access to entertainment/WiFi (a couple of airlines charge for seat-back entertainment).
Swizec 11y ago
I solve this problem by being short. Other than EasyJet, I have yet to find an uncomfortable flight, especially in the US where there's more legroom than in Europe. I assume for the same reason that cars are more spacious. Transatlantic flights are downright luxorious. They also give free everything, I assume it's a law somewhere. The one thing being short is a superpower for :D
saiya-jin 11y ago
ok but then you are describing a snobbish spoiled wealthy-guy attitude, something i personally would hate to become, no matter what amount of cash would come with it. I am 1.88m tall, long legs and all, and have absolutely no issue travelling in tourist class around the world. true happiness and lifelong experiences come from different places
- Someone1234 11y ago
  > I am 1.88m tall, long legs and all, and have absolutely no issue travelling in tourist class around the world. I too am 6'2 and find travelling any distance extremely uncomfortable, and if the person in front reclines they're literally laying on my knees, bouncing up and down. International travel in economy is extremely uncomfortable as a result, and I routinely take painkillers before flying economy. I pay (often 50% more) where I can to upgrade to "Premium Economy" (or exit rows, or anything to provide more legroom without bankrupting me).
- ryanlol 11y ago
  >ok but then you are describing a snobbish spoiled wealthy-guy attitude, something i personally would hate to become, no matter what amount of cash would come with it. I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds like you find not worrying about spending money somewhat deplorable. Why? >I am 1.88m tall, long legs and all, and have absolutely no issue travelling in tourist class around the world. I'm 197cm, I can't sit in most economy seats without my knees getting killed by the seat in front of me.
cylinder 11y ago
You can't be serious. You just said you fly first class (meaning you pay a big premium), then you say free alcohol and snacks.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  That just seems like an excessively uncharitable way to interpret his comment, I'm sure he's well aware of that. And he's not even factually incorrect. You do not have to pay for drinks in first class, whether you're paying for your ticket or not. Also noteworthy that on some airlines you can easily consume $1k+ worth of alcohol on a first class flight.

by a2tech 11y ago

beamatronic 11y ago

In my experience, flying first class is not a 10% premium or a 50% premium over coach, it is a ~2x-3x or more premium. I wouldn't call the alcohol and snacks "free". If you look at it that way, then flying coach gives you a free meal at say, the French Laundry.

Someone1234 11y ago
Unfortunately the word "free" has lost all coherent meaning in modern usage. Amazon Prime has "free" shipping, costs $100/year. Your cellphone plan has "free" text messaging, costs $79/month. Your postage has "free" tracking, costs $11. Why, in particular in American, has the word "included" seemingly been vanished from the popular vocabulary to be replaced with "free?" Now what word do we use when something is ACTUALLY free?
- fluxquanta 11y ago
  "Buy two at half price" doesn't have the same zing as "buy one get one free".
matthewrudy 11y ago
I mostly fly between Hong Kong and London. Return flights are usually something like: * economy 900USD * premium 2000USD * business 6,000USD * first 10,000USD So, I always go economy. Not sure it's ever worth a month's wages (after tax) to have a bit of free champagne.
- crdb 11y ago
  It comes down to the marginal utility of your money vs. the upgrade. For example, I fly Singapore to Tokyo about once or twice a year, sometimes more often, always on Scoot, a budget airline run by Singapore Airlines. Upgrading from economy to ScootBiz costs as little as $80 with their "bid for biz" program. I always "bid for biz" and it's absolutely worth it: early boarding, free food, much more space (for yourself and your carry on), etc. So the marginal utility of the upgrade for me is worth more than $80. At some level of net worth, flying First on a legacy airline to Tokyo, maybe Japan Airlines which I had to take in economy once for $1,500 vs the $200 or so Scoot can go down to, would have more utility to me than the $10,000 extra I'd have to fork out. I don't know what that net worth would be (probably north of 50 million), but I know that past perhaps a few million dollars in liquid assets, I would always fly business even at 3x the cost, and I know plenty of people in that situation doing exactly that. And there's people for whom flying SQ Suites [1] for $30,000 one way is a "discount" from flying the same route privately. [1] reposting because such a fun read: http://dereklow.co/what-its-like-to-fly-the-23000-singapore-airlines-suites-class/ http://dereklow.co/what-its-like-to-fly-the-23000-singapore-...
- arcticbull 11y ago
  However, while dollar cost to move between classes of service is exponential [1] the number of points required is approximately logarithmic [2]. Even using American's post-devaluation chart (one-way): * economy 35,000 * business 70,000 * first 90,000 So, buy miles when on sale, fly first at a significant discount subject to availability. [1] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=quadratic+fit+%7B1,900%7D,%7B2,2000%7D,%7B3,6000%7D,%7B4.0,10000%7D https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=quadratic+fit+%7B1,900... [2] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=log+fit+%7B1,35000%7D+%7B3,+70000%7D,+%7B4,+90000%7D https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=log+fit+%7B1,35000%7D+...
- ohjeez 11y ago
  One issue is what your time is worth. Few of us can travel long distances in Coach (say, Phoenix to Europe) without losing at least one day to physical recovery. If I can arrive rested and ready to get to work, that's worth money.
- 11y ago
chiph 11y ago
> ~2x-3x or more premium Sometimes you get lucky. I booked 1st class for my xmas trip home last year, and it was only $100 more than the comfort seat upgrade and 1 checked bag that I was going to spend anyway.
pc86 11y ago
> it is a ~2x-3x or more premium This is only my experience on long flights. In 2007 I had a $600 coach seat from NYC to Ireland (may have been a connection I do not recall). The first-class seats were in the upper $4k range. My wife and I fly from the northern east coast of the US to the southern east coast once a year, the tickets are roughly $650 total for coach (including $50/person for the "Comfort +" seats). First class has never risen past ~$950.
- ghaff 11y ago
  Part of it is that there's a huge delta between international economy and international business/first while the difference in domestic is mostly wider seats, free drinks, and maybe a meal. Hey, I'll take the domestic upgrade but it's not as big a deal as on a long international flight.
rconti 11y ago
Business tends to be ~5x over Coach, and First is 10x more than Coach. I'd fly business every single flight I ever took if it was only 2x. IMO the airlines are missing a huge business opportunity to provide all-business-class travel.

tamana 11y ago

I noticed the same as moxoe recently, and it feels different from the past ... Maybe because First is giving way to relatively Lowe priced Business class. There are fewer obviously rich people now , and more obviously wide people.

eitally 11y ago

You get free alcohol & snacks in the economy+ section now, too, btw.

Someone1234 11y ago
Depends on the airline. On some airlines the food/drinks assortment is identical between economy and economy+. Just get more legroom/width, sometimes an included checked bag (of $25-50 value), sometimes earlier boarding, and sometimes included access to entertainment/WiFi (a couple of airlines charge for seat-back entertainment).

Swizec 11y ago

I solve this problem by being short. Other than EasyJet, I have yet to find an uncomfortable flight, especially in the US where there's more legroom than in Europe. I assume for the same reason that cars are more spacious. Transatlantic flights are downright luxorious. They also give free everything, I assume it's a law somewhere. The one thing being short is a superpower for :D

saiya-jin 11y ago

ok but then you are describing a snobbish spoiled wealthy-guy attitude, something i personally would hate to become, no matter what amount of cash would come with it. I am 1.88m tall, long legs and all, and have absolutely no issue travelling in tourist class around the world. true happiness and lifelong experiences come from different places

Someone1234 11y ago
> I am 1.88m tall, long legs and all, and have absolutely no issue travelling in tourist class around the world. I too am 6'2 and find travelling any distance extremely uncomfortable, and if the person in front reclines they're literally laying on my knees, bouncing up and down. International travel in economy is extremely uncomfortable as a result, and I routinely take painkillers before flying economy. I pay (often 50% more) where I can to upgrade to "Premium Economy" (or exit rows, or anything to provide more legroom without bankrupting me).
ryanlol 11y ago
>ok but then you are describing a snobbish spoiled wealthy-guy attitude, something i personally would hate to become, no matter what amount of cash would come with it. I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds like you find not worrying about spending money somewhat deplorable. Why? >I am 1.88m tall, long legs and all, and have absolutely no issue travelling in tourist class around the world. I'm 197cm, I can't sit in most economy seats without my knees getting killed by the seat in front of me.

cylinder 11y ago

You can't be serious. You just said you fly first class (meaning you pay a big premium), then you say free alcohol and snacks.

ryanlol 11y ago
That just seems like an excessively uncharitable way to interpret his comment, I'm sure he's well aware of that. And he's not even factually incorrect. You do not have to pay for drinks in first class, whether you're paying for your ticket or not. Also noteworthy that on some airlines you can easily consume $1k+ worth of alcohol on a first class flight.