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In Germany any kind of data collection must be backed by a cause. So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles

In Germany any kind of data collection must be backed by a cause. So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Putting fixed cameras up and filming the public is not legal either in Germany - you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space, for example filming the boardwalk in front of your house. Whether dashcams are legal is still contested [1]. Whether large=scale manual collection would be legal is an interesting question which has - to the best of my limited knowledge - never been put to the test :) [1] a fairly ok high level summary in german: https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/ratgeber-verkehr/verkehrsrecht/Dashcam/Situation%20in%20Deutschland.aspx?ComponentId=219667&SourcePageId=202144 https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/ratgeber-verkehr/verkehrsrec...

gist 11y ago
> you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space Interesting so a business for example can't have a camera monitoring outside (or inside) the place of business for security purposes? Can they apply for an exemption and is it normally granted?
- germanier 11y ago
  They can monitor their inside place (if there is a clear sign there) and and also their door from the outside (as long as the public street isn't filmed). Videos have to be deleted quickly and can only be used for theft prevention purposes. Exemptions can't be granted by the government and courts will usually decide against business owners that violate those rules.
- detaro 11y ago
  You can monitor your own property if you inform properly (post notices, renters have to agree, ...) > Can they apply for an exemption and is it normally granted? No. If your camera monitors public space (streets, sidewalk, ...) it either has to be so far in the distance that it can't identify people or cars, or you have to block these parts of the image (either physically, or by blanking those parts of the signal before they are recorded. Many cameras allow to put black boxes over parts of the image in firmware)
  - germanier 11y ago
    > You can monitor your own property if you inform properly Even that is restricted. For example it is not allowed to video monitor your employees in almost all cases. To use video surveillance you have to have a legitimate reason and even then the rights of you and the ones being filmed need to be carefully balanced.
    - detaro 11y ago
      true, i was maybe generalizing a bit to much.
- Xylakant 11y ago
  Afaik inside is possible but requires signs (and probably you're subject to checks), outside no. You can't even have empty camera bodies pointing to the street.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Inside a business is not a "public place", it is a place to which the public have access. Outside a business is similar, unless the camera is outside and pointing to the road or pavement. In England if you have CCTV you're expected to register with the Information Commissioner. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/cctv/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio... https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/ https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/ Even so, we're heavily surveilled in the UK.
  - Xylakant 11y ago
    The german BDSG references "publicly accessible areas", so it still applies in a shop. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bdsg/englisch_bdsg.html#p0153 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bdsg/englisch_bds... (supercool, for that occasion I figured out that there's an official english translation, didn't know that)
superuser2 11y ago
> So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Is this really true? My understanding is you guys do a lot of speed limit enforcement by camera.
- Xylakant 11y ago
  We do, but the camera only captures a picture of the speeder at the place where the violation occurs which constitutes a valid cause. So it's no usable for tracking (unless the target you're tracking is speeding through every radar trap). On top of that, once the ticket is paid the data is supposed to be deleted. (whether that really happens is yet another discussion)
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Normally you would compare the timestamps on photos of the license plate in two places; you don't know whether or not the driver was speeding until you have the second timestamp. Or does it only take a picture in response to an instantaneous speed measurement? This seems much less useful, as you could just speed everywhere except the tiny range of the speed trap.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

gist 11y ago

> you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space Interesting so a business for example can't have a camera monitoring outside (or inside) the place of business for security purposes? Can they apply for an exemption and is it normally granted?

germanier 11y ago
They can monitor their inside place (if there is a clear sign there) and and also their door from the outside (as long as the public street isn't filmed). Videos have to be deleted quickly and can only be used for theft prevention purposes. Exemptions can't be granted by the government and courts will usually decide against business owners that violate those rules.
detaro 11y ago
You can monitor your own property if you inform properly (post notices, renters have to agree, ...) > Can they apply for an exemption and is it normally granted? No. If your camera monitors public space (streets, sidewalk, ...) it either has to be so far in the distance that it can't identify people or cars, or you have to block these parts of the image (either physically, or by blanking those parts of the signal before they are recorded. Many cameras allow to put black boxes over parts of the image in firmware)
- germanier 11y ago
  > You can monitor your own property if you inform properly Even that is restricted. For example it is not allowed to video monitor your employees in almost all cases. To use video surveillance you have to have a legitimate reason and even then the rights of you and the ones being filmed need to be carefully balanced.
  - detaro 11y ago
    true, i was maybe generalizing a bit to much.
Xylakant 11y ago
Afaik inside is possible but requires signs (and probably you're subject to checks), outside no. You can't even have empty camera bodies pointing to the street.
DanBC 11y ago
Inside a business is not a "public place", it is a place to which the public have access. Outside a business is similar, unless the camera is outside and pointing to the road or pavement. In England if you have CCTV you're expected to register with the Information Commissioner. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/cctv/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio... https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/ https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/ Even so, we're heavily surveilled in the UK.
- Xylakant 11y ago
  The german BDSG references "publicly accessible areas", so it still applies in a shop. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bdsg/englisch_bdsg.html#p0153 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bdsg/englisch_bds... (supercool, for that occasion I figured out that there's an official english translation, didn't know that)

superuser2 11y ago

> So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Is this really true? My understanding is you guys do a lot of speed limit enforcement by camera.

Xylakant 11y ago
We do, but the camera only captures a picture of the speeder at the place where the violation occurs which constitutes a valid cause. So it's no usable for tracking (unless the target you're tracking is speeding through every radar trap). On top of that, once the ticket is paid the data is supposed to be deleted. (whether that really happens is yet another discussion)
- superuser2 11y ago
  Normally you would compare the timestamps on photos of the license plate in two places; you don't know whether or not the driver was speeding until you have the second timestamp. Or does it only take a picture in response to an instantaneous speed measurement? This seems much less useful, as you could just speed everywhere except the tiny range of the speed trap.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]