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"Lightbend" as a name is I think the least interesting part of this announcement. So, Typesafe pivots away from being the company behind Scala to being the com

by 16bytes 11y ago

"Lightbend" as a name is I think the least interesting part of this announcement. So, Typesafe pivots away from being the company behind Scala to being the company behind the "Reactive Platform (tm)". I didn't understand the motivation at first--they announced they were going to do this a while ago--but this sentence sums it up: > ... with more than half of our customers representing traditional Java enterprises. We continue to evolve, becoming more language agnostic ... I can understand this. While I always liked the Typesafe brand because of it tech connotation and implicit relation to Scala, if you want to diversify outside of the Scala box, you'll have to change the name. As a Scala fan, however, it's hard to not see this as a blow to the community. Having Typesafe behind Scala was one of the major advantages of choosing Scala, and IMHO the primary reason Scala adoption spread wider and faster that Clojure, Haskell et. al. I was hoping the JVM community would coalesce around one post-java language and I was hoping it was Scala. But now add Kotlin to the mix of Groovy and Clojure, and the future gets murkier. Especially with the mind-share and great communities around Rust and Go. This is probably a good thing for Typesafe/Lightbend, however. The Scala ecosystem had been tough to monetize. Putting their full weight behind commercial offerings on top of FOSS foundations seems like a better business strategy.

merb 11y ago
Actually typesafe also invested a lot into java8 lately. Especially the playframework got way more focus on Java.
acjohnson55 11y ago
Rust could be the future, but I just don't see it for Kotlin. Scala's not perfect, but moving to Kotlin leaves a lot on the table. It reminds me of Swift in the way that it left out a lot of Scala at the outset, but appears to be slowly growing Scala-like functionality. At some point, I'm like, maybe life would be better if people just used Scala or languages that attempt to build on its techniques, rather than scale them back.
- azth 11y ago
  > but I just don't see it for Kotlin From what I understand, Kotlin will be gaining more features slowly but steadily, similar to what you describe for Swift. I think that Kotlin's ability to integrate seamlessly into any Java codebase (at least in theory) is one of the strongest things it has going for it. Plus being backed up by Jetbrains, with very strong focus on providing a top notch IDE experience.
  - acjohnson55 11y ago
    How would you distinguish Kotlin's and Scala's Java integration? I only use Scala, but don't use it within a larger Java codebase, but my understanding is that this is pretty straightforward.
    - azth 11y ago
      You should be able to drop in a Kotlin file into any Java project, and mix and match as you choose, without having to restructure the entire project, and move to a different build system.
      - acjohnson55 11y ago
        You still need to build it with a Kotlin compiler though, right? Assuming you install the Scala compiler directly, rather than relying on SBT, you can do the same.
        azth 11y ago
        I tested it out a bit, it seems that first, the Kotlin files get compiled with the Kotlin compiler jars; after that the Java files get compiled with javac.
- mike_hearn 11y ago
  Hmm, Rust and Kotlin are targeting very different markets. I can't forsee Rust ever taking over much (if any) of the market that Java/Kotlin/Scala are going after, the cost/benefit tradeoffs are just too different. JetBrains' strategy with Kotlin is pretty simple - take the best bits of Scala whilst not allowing anything to compromise toolchain quality or seamless Java interop. The goal being commercial success rather than research papers. It's basically a spin on the same recipe that made Java itself a success in the early days. Which is why I anticipate they'll be quite successful with it.
vorg 11y ago
> I was hoping the JVM community would coalesce around one post-java language and I was hoping it was Scala. But now add Kotlin to the mix of Groovy and Clojure, and the future gets murkier Those languages you mention each have vastly different use cases: Scala = statically-typed replacement for Java, backed by Typesafe/Lightbend, an FP/OO hybrid by adding functional programming to the JVM Kotlin = statically-typed replacement for Java, backed by Jetbrains, delivered via its popular IntelliJ product Groovy = dynamically-typed addition to Java 7 and before, failed attempt to shift into static typing, no longer backed by any business, and no IDE plugin being maintained. Only used like bash for the JVM, and Gradle build files Clojure = dynamically-typed addition to Java (all versions), backed by Cognitect, expanded to other platforms (e.g. ClojureScript, ClojureCLR)

by 16bytes 11y ago

merb 11y ago

Actually typesafe also invested a lot into java8 lately. Especially the playframework got way more focus on Java.

acjohnson55 11y ago

Rust could be the future, but I just don't see it for Kotlin. Scala's not perfect, but moving to Kotlin leaves a lot on the table. It reminds me of Swift in the way that it left out a lot of Scala at the outset, but appears to be slowly growing Scala-like functionality. At some point, I'm like, maybe life would be better if people just used Scala or languages that attempt to build on its techniques, rather than scale them back.

azth 11y ago
> but I just don't see it for Kotlin From what I understand, Kotlin will be gaining more features slowly but steadily, similar to what you describe for Swift. I think that Kotlin's ability to integrate seamlessly into any Java codebase (at least in theory) is one of the strongest things it has going for it. Plus being backed up by Jetbrains, with very strong focus on providing a top notch IDE experience.
- acjohnson55 11y ago
  How would you distinguish Kotlin's and Scala's Java integration? I only use Scala, but don't use it within a larger Java codebase, but my understanding is that this is pretty straightforward.
  - azth 11y ago
    You should be able to drop in a Kotlin file into any Java project, and mix and match as you choose, without having to restructure the entire project, and move to a different build system.
    - acjohnson55 11y ago
      You still need to build it with a Kotlin compiler though, right? Assuming you install the Scala compiler directly, rather than relying on SBT, you can do the same.
      - azth 11y ago
        I tested it out a bit, it seems that first, the Kotlin files get compiled with the Kotlin compiler jars; after that the Java files get compiled with javac.
mike_hearn 11y ago
Hmm, Rust and Kotlin are targeting very different markets. I can't forsee Rust ever taking over much (if any) of the market that Java/Kotlin/Scala are going after, the cost/benefit tradeoffs are just too different. JetBrains' strategy with Kotlin is pretty simple - take the best bits of Scala whilst not allowing anything to compromise toolchain quality or seamless Java interop. The goal being commercial success rather than research papers. It's basically a spin on the same recipe that made Java itself a success in the early days. Which is why I anticipate they'll be quite successful with it.

vorg 11y ago

> I was hoping the JVM community would coalesce around one post-java language and I was hoping it was Scala. But now add Kotlin to the mix of Groovy and Clojure, and the future gets murkier Those languages you mention each have vastly different use cases: Scala = statically-typed replacement for Java, backed by Typesafe/Lightbend, an FP/OO hybrid by adding functional programming to the JVM Kotlin = statically-typed replacement for Java, backed by Jetbrains, delivered via its popular IntelliJ product Groovy = dynamically-typed addition to Java 7 and before, failed attempt to shift into static typing, no longer backed by any business, and no IDE plugin being maintained. Only used like bash for the JVM, and Gradle build files Clojure = dynamically-typed addition to Java (all versions), backed by Cognitect, expanded to other platforms (e.g. ClojureScript, ClojureCLR)