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I think Vegetable Oil Fuel Cells are the future of the automotive world. No range limitations exist now. Adapting infra is like adapting new grade of gasoline.

by vlehto 11y ago

I think Vegetable Oil Fuel Cells are the future of the automotive world. No range limitations exist now. Adapting infra is like adapting new grade of gasoline. Now chronic fuel leakage exists now. Filling the tank is not rocket science. No volumetric energy density problems for the fuel. No fishy "we make this fuel out of natural gas, but don't talk about it" shit about it. No need for high pressure containers. And it comes with all the good things that you get from fuel cells, but you can also use it with traditional diesel motors. The problems: Some C02 comes out of the exhaust. But it's carbon neutral. Hydrogen has the "water out of tailpipe!" hype about it, but it's only really clean if that hydrogen is made with electricity that comes from nuclear or renewable (and clean) sources. Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas at the moment. The other problem is that we have limited capability to produce vegetable oil. But we also have limited capability to produce hydrogen. With hydrogen you could go with massive increase of nuclear power, and you got it. But currently there is also research for oils produced by seaweeds that looks quite promising. Edit: Seems like Fuel Cell technology would be great, but it's held back by hydrogen hype. And hydrogen hype seems to be destined as hype, because hydrogen is freakishly difficult substance to deal with.

creshal 11y ago
> Hydrogen has the "water out of tailpipe!" hype about it ¹ May or may not contain traces of hydrogen peroxide, but shhhh.
- masklinn 11y ago
  Does that really matter? Isn't the trace of hydrogen peroxide in water output going to be irrelevant and decompose into water on short order?
_ph_ 11y ago
We should use anything edible for feeding people, not burn it for driving cars. Solar cells are far more energy efficient per area (about 10x) than any agriculture. And, while "grown" fuel might be CO2 neutral, it still produces the same poisonous combustion byproducts as fossil fuel (NOx, fine particles).
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  The OP suggested fuel cells. This would replace IC engines and should result in complete conversion to CO2+H2O (with the whole process being carbon neutral because the CO2 came from the air originally). I.e no NOx, fine particles etc. I agree on feeding people however e.g. algae produced bio oil could be very space conservative -- and could be used to e.g. clean waste water. NB use of could and should rather than would throughout this post. Algae produced bio oils are a matter of research at the moment and I don't think that the fuel cells exist yet.
- vlehto 11y ago
  In large scale I'd agree that only using vegetable oil for car fuel seems like bad idea, because we seem to be running out of food at that point. But using electricity conversed to hydrogen with relatively bad efficiency (70%) we are soon running out of electricity too. Combine that with hopefully shift from fossil fuels to renewable, and the shit we are in deepens. Now if you could use batteries and electric cars for short trips you would have very high efficiency. Then shift to refueling capable system for long range needs. This is only possible if the "long range" system has very low infra needs. Optimally we would have some kind of standard that would allow you to swap battery to fuel tank + fuel cell unit in your electric car. I've ranted about that previously. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10942912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10942912

by vlehto 11y ago

creshal 11y ago

> Hydrogen has the "water out of tailpipe!" hype about it ¹ May or may not contain traces of hydrogen peroxide, but shhhh.

masklinn 11y ago
Does that really matter? Isn't the trace of hydrogen peroxide in water output going to be irrelevant and decompose into water on short order?

_ph_ 11y ago

We should use anything edible for feeding people, not burn it for driving cars. Solar cells are far more energy efficient per area (about 10x) than any agriculture. And, while "grown" fuel might be CO2 neutral, it still produces the same poisonous combustion byproducts as fossil fuel (NOx, fine particles).

JupiterMoon 11y ago
The OP suggested fuel cells. This would replace IC engines and should result in complete conversion to CO2+H2O (with the whole process being carbon neutral because the CO2 came from the air originally). I.e no NOx, fine particles etc. I agree on feeding people however e.g. algae produced bio oil could be very space conservative -- and could be used to e.g. clean waste water. NB use of could and should rather than would throughout this post. Algae produced bio oils are a matter of research at the moment and I don't think that the fuel cells exist yet.
vlehto 11y ago
In large scale I'd agree that only using vegetable oil for car fuel seems like bad idea, because we seem to be running out of food at that point. But using electricity conversed to hydrogen with relatively bad efficiency (70%) we are soon running out of electricity too. Combine that with hopefully shift from fossil fuels to renewable, and the shit we are in deepens. Now if you could use batteries and electric cars for short trips you would have very high efficiency. Then shift to refueling capable system for long range needs. This is only possible if the "long range" system has very low infra needs. Optimally we would have some kind of standard that would allow you to swap battery to fuel tank + fuel cell unit in your electric car. I've ranted about that previously. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10942912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10942912