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Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

65 points by phesse14 11y ago

citizensixteen 11y ago
I do not understand why Bill Gates would take a contrary position to Silicon Valley / tech community on this issue. Any insight into why he is taking this stance? What I have found even more confusing is why the FBI hasn't asked the NSA for help. The NSA's thousands of skilled hackers simply can't break into an old iPhone?
- jarcane 11y ago
  Because caving to the Feds is basically Microsoft standard policy, and always has been?
- madaxe_again 11y ago
  Because the US government is Microsoft's biggest customer by a country mile. Hand that feeds you and all that. The FBI already have the info they need, don't need nsa's help, this is purely about setting a precedent.
  - revanx_ 11y ago
    Exactly, especially now that the D.O.D. is rushing to upgrade every device to windows 10, what a joke ;d
  - lazaroclapp 11y ago
    Gates is not in charge of Microsoft anymore... and hasn't been for a long while. Actually, my best hypothesis is that, remembering that the Gates Foundation, which is the organization Gates is actually involved with now, works a lot in government/policy circles, Bill himself might have views that are more common within that circle that within the tech community. Whether that means that he is taking this point because he has more information, less information or just different priorities, I do not know. I don't even remember if Gates took any position on the original crypto wars. I personally find that the balance of arguments weights much heavier on the side of security and privacy, versus surveillance, and that creating this tool and setting this particular precedent would do more harm than good. I can still imagine a world in which Gates disagrees with that without being knowingly evil, though. Actually, when it comes to Gates in particular, I admit that when I was younger I spent a long time thinking of him as "knowingly evil" (or at least selfish to a extreme degree) for completely different reasons. Later I realized that he might have simply put priority on different ethical axioms than my high-school self did... and in the balance of things might end up having been a higher positive force in the world than a negative one, by far, see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria#Eradication_efforts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria#Eradication_efforts . This doesn't mean I agree with him on the issue at hand, though.
    - madaxe_again 11y ago
      He's not in charge of, but still holds at least $12bn of MS stock, on which a lot of his wealth is leveraged and predicated, which would certainly give him a vested interest in defending microsoft's interests, which are the government's interests. You may well be right however that the circle he runs in has influenced his stance on this too, however he has historically taken a pro-government anti-knowledge stance - see http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140313?page=2 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-roll... for instance in which he trots out the "Snowden is a traitor who needs to come home for a fair trial" rhetoric.
- jonnybgood 11y ago
  That's not how the NSA operates. The NSA is not a tech support hotline for the Feds. The NSA has its own mission set which its resources go towards. If it doesn't fall within that mission set, then NSA don't care. This iPhone doesn't fall within that mission set.
  - majewsky 11y ago
    Shamir's 3rd Law of Computer Security: "Cryptography is typically bypassed, not penetrated."
- tallanvor 11y ago
  Because people are allowed to have their own opinion? I don't agree with him, but I certainly don't base my opinion on this matter on the general sentiments in Silicon Valley. Regardless of the outcome of this case, the best thing that Apple, Google, and everyone else can do is to make sure that it's impossible for them to comply with future versions of the OS.
  - SeanDav 11y ago
    Bill Gates is well aware that people will take this, not as his personal opinion, but as the opinion of Microsoft. He could have made it it clear that this was his personal opinion and not related to the Microsoft position, but he did not.
    - tallanvor 11y ago
      Most people outside the tech industry don't pay attention to what Bill Gates, Tim Cook, or anyone else in the tech industry says. Those in the industry are hopefully smart enough to recognize that Bill Gates saying something doesn't mean that Microsoft is necessarily in agreement with it.
      - rahoulb 11y ago
        But the likes of Bill Gates will get quoted on the news headlines - most people don't care but will hear "Bill Gates says..." and think "well, if the experts think that"
- simonh 11y ago
  Even the NSA don't have a magic wand for braking cryptographic security. Designing well engineered, secure cryptographic systems that are not hackable is a thing people can do and it appears Apple have done it. Most of the NSA hacking has nothing to do with cracking cryptographic keys anyway, it's exploiting weaknesses in systems so you don't even need the keys at all. In this case, it appears they would need the keys.
acqq 11y ago
In Tim Cook's words, from his latest letter to the employees: "Some advocates of the government’s order want us to roll back data protections to iOS 7, which we released in September 2013. Starting with iOS 8, we began encrypting data in a way that not even the iPhone itself can read without the user’s passcode, so if it is lost or stolen, our personal data, conversations, financial and health information are far more secure. We all know that turning back the clock on that progress would be a terrible idea." The last released non-beta iOS is 9.2. Bill Gates still owns some 13 billions in Microsoft stocks.
- chroma 11y ago
  Your Cook quote is DH3 on the disagreement hierarchy.[1] I agree with it, but it doesn't engage with any arguments for or against the court order. > Bill Gates still owns some 13 billions in Microsoft stocks. Do you really think Gates would dissemble, throw privacy under a bus, and draw the ire of his peers... just for a potential bump in net worth? I think it's far more likely that he believes what he says he believes. As much as the HN crowd likes to side with Apple on this matter, reasonable people can disagree about what's best. I hope Gates's position causes people to reflect on why they have the opinion they do. Gates doesn't have some shady ulterior motive. He's simply stating his opinion on the matter, and using some hastily-conceived analogies to explain it to the general public. That's all. 1. http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
  - acqq 11y ago
    > > Bill Gates still owns some 13 billions in Microsoft stocks. > Do you really think Gates would dissemble, throw privacy under a bus, and draw the ire of his peers... just for a potential bump in net worth? Check which companies sided with Apple this time and which didn't, then compare with some other older cases, for example after Snowden's revelations, then you tell me how you see the current state this time. Almost certainly the phone doesn't contain anything relevant: it was just a business phone of the killer who actually took care to destroy his private phone and computer, the backup data out of the phone is already owned by the FBI and they just clumsily locked themselves out. Even if I can imagine Gates believes what he says the context matters and shouldn't be left unmentioned. Interests and affiliations of somebody influential making the public statement are certainly important to mention. Also to compare, Cook was almost presented guilty for trying to preserve the products of his company.
Johnny555 11y ago
Does he feel that Apple should also unlock the 12 other phones the Justice Department is reportedly also filing court orders for? http://gizmodo.com/justice-department-forcing-apple-to-unlock-about-12-oth-1760749507 http://gizmodo.com/justice-department-forcing-apple-to-unloc... The Justice Department is pursuing court orders to force Apple Inc. to help investigators extract data from iPhones in about a dozen undisclosed cases around the country... And what about when authorities in the UK also have cases where they "need" phones to be unlocked? And how about China? And every other government in the world that may want to have phones unlocked?
zer01 11y ago
>"It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records,” he said. “Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’." Seriously? It's absolutely different (not to mention his ribbon analogy makes no sense at all). I see all of this more a question of "can Americans actually have anything remain private on a commercial device?". I don't want anyone but me to have unfettered access to my data, regardless of if it's phone records, bank info, or my phone's contents. Here's hoping that the iPhone 7 has a secure enclave that either 1.) deletes keys on firmware flash, or 2.) doesn't allow it to be upgraded ever.
- noxin 11y ago
  > I see all of this more a question of "can Americans actually have anything remain private on a commercial device?". It's Americans now, but if Apple gives in, investigators from other big markets might pressure Apple to do the same for them. I think that's what's meant with cutting the ribbon many times.
  - camillomiller 11y ago
    This debate is global. Why is it so hard to understand for most politicians? It's a matter of national security because the matter is not strictly national, and could have reverberation all over the world, especially in very sensitive markets like China.
- saurik 11y ago
  The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this as if they are being asked to build a backdoor instead of use an existing one is them being nothing more than dishonest in an attempt to twist the story and shift the blame. So yes: I think it is fair to describe the security of this device, from the perspective of Apple, as nothing more than a ribbon, as Apple already has "unfettered access to [your] data". Apple trusts users so little that they don't give users control of the hardware they own... this is frankly a good lesson on them that this is responsibility they should never have hoarded. "Here's hoping that the iPhone 7 no longer has a backdoor that is controlled by Apple."
p01926 11y ago
So why is Microsoft fighting us.gov regarding access to data stored in another country? Isn't that, to the layman, just another variety of ribbon-wrapped box. Gates should know that, just like extra-jurisdictional data retrieval, signed malware data retrieval is dangerous, bad business and awful precedent. He must publicly set the record straight for his company's stance to have any credibility.
- simonh 11y ago
  The reason Microsoft isn't releasing information stored in other countries is because doing so would break the law in those other countries. It would open Microsoft and its employees to prosecution in those countries. I disagree with Bill on phone security and agree with Apple's stance, but even so it's pretty clear to me that Microsoft has a stronger case and literally has no choice but to deny the US DOJ access to records held abroad.
- tallanvor 11y ago
  Bill Gates isn't in charge at Microsoft. Sure, he's still on the board, but he's not even the chairman anymore. It's possible that he disagrees with Microsoft fighting the government regarding access to data stored overseas, but is staying silent because he doesn't want to be seen as badmouthing current management.
StreamBright 11y ago
I disagree with Gates on this one, I think in the US that has common law legal systems, setting the precedent by unlocking (if possible) the iphone in question would be disastrous.
- repsilat 11y ago
  Legal precedents are only set in legal judgements, aren't they? I think Apple unlocking the phone would only set a cultural precedent.
  - StreamBright 11y ago
    Isn't there a court case opened against Apple on this one? Sorry my legal knowledge is very limited but I think the official FBI request goes through a court. Maybe I am wrong, if somebody has the details I would love to read about it more.
dingo_bat 11y ago
Can anybody explain why unlocking just this specific phone is bad? Can't we decide on a case-by-case basis? It's not like Apple is being asked to backdoor all Iphones so FBI can read everyone's data. Just this specific one ordered by court. What am I missing?
- riffraff 11y ago
  Apple's position is that if they provide the FBI with the software, then the FBI will effectively be able to use it in every other situation. And once the software leaks, which will eventually happen, everyone will be able to do it in every situation. Moreover, every other government will ask for it, and not all governments meet the same moral standards.
- hypron 11y ago
  That's the entire point - if Apple designed a backdoor through their security into this specific iPhone, it could be used to backdoor into any iPhone.
- _ikke_ 11y ago
  In order to do so, Apple has to make an update that loosens the restrictions the current version has. Once that update exists, it can be installed on any device because it has been signed by Apple.
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- saiya-jin 11y ago
  my understanding - there is currently no software package created to allow this (ie modified kernel or whatever is necessary). government doesn't have resources/knowledge to do it on its own, otherwise they would already have it. once this is created, apple would pressed HARD by all authorities to re-use it for all iphones captured. these days we know damn too well that people in CIA, aNSA etc don't hold any reasonable moral values when it comes to privacy of about anybody on this planet. plus it could be taken from this specific phone and very probably copied anywhere, without any apple approval or court order. if government was playing mr nice guy till now, there would be at least some hope and faith. currently, there is simply none.
abpavel 11y ago
Bill Gates: "Let's say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said 'don't make me cut this ribbon because you'll make me cut it many times'" ...Well, that sums up his understanding of the the encryption technology. Then what are we to expect of the general public, when even Bill Gates sees a "ribbon around a disk drive"?
- chroma 11y ago
  I thought it was quite clear that Gates was making an analogy for non-technical readers. He doesn't really think of encrypted devices that way. Unfortunately, there's no way Gates can win here. If he uses technical language, journalists and/or readers won't understand. Or worse: they'll misunderstand his views. If he uses simplistic analogies, he invites mockery from technical readers.
  - camillomiller 11y ago
    Yes, but in the second case he'll win the sympathy of the laymen who will think "hey, if even bill gates says they're wrong, maybe they're wrong. The guy's a genius". These people are less vocal than tech readers, but they vastly outnumber them.
    - chroma 11y ago
      I doubt Gates has any hidden motive behind his statements. He's just saying something he believes to be true, while trying to make sure others understand him. Why would he care about getting sympathy from laymen? He's the richest person on the planet. He's got more important stuff to do, like sparing millions of people from disease, poverty, and hunger.
      - camillomiller 11y ago
        Then it's even less understandable why should he muddle the waters with an ill conceived analogy like the "ribbon around a hard drive" one.
4684499 11y ago
No surprises, considering his attitude to Bitcoin.
- deleted 11y ago
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abpavel 11y ago
Coming from a man who created aptly named "Windows", where FBI never needs to ask for access.
ousta 11y ago
Is anyone doubting apple unlocked the iPhone? I don't understand B Gates stance. of course they did unlock and give it to the police. of course they will never say it in a PR and we all know why. Is anyone doubting that we are now living in a world where EVERY one of us is a potential suspect being processed in a set of crappy ML algorithms and stats where our faces, fingersprints, RFID cards are being captured at every instant of our lives? and don't worry IOT is coming. Alexa is already the premise of HAL except that the AI that controls the world will never happen. Much worse will happen. People that do not care about mankind or freedom will listen to our every moves, every instant of our lives.
saiya-jin 11y ago
well, what a coincidence, I guess MS phones aren't selling well, so let's undermine competition a bit. not for a second do I suspect mr gates to be stupid or not comprehending situation in full detail, with all possible consequences. and here I thought that he went from most hated IT guy on this planet in '90s to somebody actually concerned about good of the mankind. can somebody shed some light what would be his true motivations for these statements?
arihant 11y ago
No, Mr. Gates, cutting this ribbon would mean that all the other ribbons are cut by default. Not just by your allies, but by your not-so-friends in North Korea. It's not about cutting a ribbon. It's about putting a hard drive in a box that self destructs when you try to open it. What your friends are asking is not to cut a ribbon, but to make the box open safely with a master key. Your government could not even stop wikileaks and your own employee to turn against you -- how do you expect the world to trust them with master key? Overreaching beyond means and have it blow up in the face is quickly becoming an American virtue in the 21st century.
studentrob 11y ago
Gates does some great things but he's not thinking far enough into the future here. If our law enforcement cannot understand that terrorists will simply switch to use another encryption tool, then we have a much bigger problem than unlocking a single iPhone. Our security force does not know how to keep us safe. I'd rather they figure that out sooner than later.
bleachedsleet 11y ago
Anybody remember this? http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html
bleachedsleet 11y ago
Anybody remember this? http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html
cbeach 11y ago
"No computer will ever need more than 640K memory" - Bill Gates 1981 "There is no future in the Internet." - Bill Gates 1988
marak830 11y ago
Wow. Just wow. I keep thinking there is some huge cavet missing from the story, but if there isnt, that is massivly disconnected from reality. Call and message info, okay maybe, but full access? There is no way you can say thats fine. I have said it in an earlier comment and ill say it again, i think they are inly doing this, on this case, to make a precedent, and only on this case, as few people will want it to be on record, that they are 'siding' with terrorists. Imho, its bullshit, all the way through.
somberi 11y ago
In an interview with Rolling Stone's Jeff Goodell, the Microsoft co-founder and richest man in the world did not mince words when asked if he considered whether Snowden is a hero or a traitor. "I think he broke the law, so I certainly wouldn't characterize him as a hero," Gates said. "If he wanted to raise the issues and stay in the country and engage in civil disobedience or something of that kind, or if he had been careful in terms of what he had released, then it would fit more of the model of 'OK, I'm really trying to improve things.' You won't find much admiration from me." Gates said that there "has to be a debate" about government snooping, but indicated that some aspects of government surveillance are best left a secret. Microsoft has seen quite a bit of controversy regarding its alleged cooperation with the NSA. Last July, the Guardian reported that Microsoft had aided both the NSA and FBI in accessing user data, including providing video and audio conversations from Skype, Microsoft's video chat service. A Der Spiegel report in December also found that the NSA would use fake Windows error messages to spy on people. Ref: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-gates-snowden_n_4964311.html?section=india http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-gates-snowden_n_496... http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140313 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-roll...
mathetic 11y ago
Bill Gates led a company that shipped products with poor security for decades just to maintain their first mover advantage. He actively and deliberately took part in abusing the fact that security is not the first thing assessed in a product. He might be a brilliant man, but he clearly doesn't have the vision when it comes to security and privacy.
frik 11y ago
Wasn't MSFT the first company to hand over all data to a three letter agency? Yes it was. So no surprise. Win10 was born in this context too. And he still owns billions worth of its stock.
castell 11y ago
@dang: why is this news not on the frontpage? I found out about this news on a local newspaper site - not good :( So how many people flagged this news? Which company IP address range were involved? Keep an eye on that. Thanks. It's on 285. right now: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone (techcrunch.com) 59 points by phesse14 5 hours ago 91 comments What's going on? On 212: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone for FBI (macrumors.com) 13 points by samstokes 7 hours ago 8 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11157328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11157328 And on 1: Bill Gates calls for terror data debate (bbc.com) 22 points by lentil_soup 52 minutes ago 4 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158647
dano 11y ago
Considering Windows 10 full disk encryption sends the keys to Microsoft, I am not surprised. https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-windows-computer-microsoft-probably-has-your-encryption-key/ https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-window...

65 points by phesse14 11y ago

I do not understand why Bill Gates would take a contrary position to Silicon Valley / tech community on this issue. Any insight into why he is taking this stance? What I have found even more confusing is why the FBI hasn't asked the NSA for help. The NSA's thousands of skilled hackers simply can't break into an old iPhone?

jarcane 11y ago
Because caving to the Feds is basically Microsoft standard policy, and always has been?
madaxe_again 11y ago
Because the US government is Microsoft's biggest customer by a country mile. Hand that feeds you and all that. The FBI already have the info they need, don't need nsa's help, this is purely about setting a precedent.
- revanx_ 11y ago
  Exactly, especially now that the D.O.D. is rushing to upgrade every device to windows 10, what a joke ;d
- lazaroclapp 11y ago
  Gates is not in charge of Microsoft anymore... and hasn't been for a long while. Actually, my best hypothesis is that, remembering that the Gates Foundation, which is the organization Gates is actually involved with now, works a lot in government/policy circles, Bill himself might have views that are more common within that circle that within the tech community. Whether that means that he is taking this point because he has more information, less information or just different priorities, I do not know. I don't even remember if Gates took any position on the original crypto wars. I personally find that the balance of arguments weights much heavier on the side of security and privacy, versus surveillance, and that creating this tool and setting this particular precedent would do more harm than good. I can still imagine a world in which Gates disagrees with that without being knowingly evil, though. Actually, when it comes to Gates in particular, I admit that when I was younger I spent a long time thinking of him as "knowingly evil" (or at least selfish to a extreme degree) for completely different reasons. Later I realized that he might have simply put priority on different ethical axioms than my high-school self did... and in the balance of things might end up having been a higher positive force in the world than a negative one, by far, see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria#Eradication_efforts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria#Eradication_efforts . This doesn't mean I agree with him on the issue at hand, though.
  - madaxe_again 11y ago
    He's not in charge of, but still holds at least $12bn of MS stock, on which a lot of his wealth is leveraged and predicated, which would certainly give him a vested interest in defending microsoft's interests, which are the government's interests. You may well be right however that the circle he runs in has influenced his stance on this too, however he has historically taken a pro-government anti-knowledge stance - see http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140313?page=2 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-roll... for instance in which he trots out the "Snowden is a traitor who needs to come home for a fair trial" rhetoric.
jonnybgood 11y ago
That's not how the NSA operates. The NSA is not a tech support hotline for the Feds. The NSA has its own mission set which its resources go towards. If it doesn't fall within that mission set, then NSA don't care. This iPhone doesn't fall within that mission set.
- majewsky 11y ago
  Shamir's 3rd Law of Computer Security: "Cryptography is typically bypassed, not penetrated."
tallanvor 11y ago
Because people are allowed to have their own opinion? I don't agree with him, but I certainly don't base my opinion on this matter on the general sentiments in Silicon Valley. Regardless of the outcome of this case, the best thing that Apple, Google, and everyone else can do is to make sure that it's impossible for them to comply with future versions of the OS.
- SeanDav 11y ago
  Bill Gates is well aware that people will take this, not as his personal opinion, but as the opinion of Microsoft. He could have made it it clear that this was his personal opinion and not related to the Microsoft position, but he did not.
  - tallanvor 11y ago
    Most people outside the tech industry don't pay attention to what Bill Gates, Tim Cook, or anyone else in the tech industry says. Those in the industry are hopefully smart enough to recognize that Bill Gates saying something doesn't mean that Microsoft is necessarily in agreement with it.
    - rahoulb 11y ago
      But the likes of Bill Gates will get quoted on the news headlines - most people don't care but will hear "Bill Gates says..." and think "well, if the experts think that"
simonh 11y ago
Even the NSA don't have a magic wand for braking cryptographic security. Designing well engineered, secure cryptographic systems that are not hackable is a thing people can do and it appears Apple have done it. Most of the NSA hacking has nothing to do with cracking cryptographic keys anyway, it's exploiting weaknesses in systems so you don't even need the keys at all. In this case, it appears they would need the keys.

acqq 11y ago

In Tim Cook's words, from his latest letter to the employees: "Some advocates of the government’s order want us to roll back data protections to iOS 7, which we released in September 2013. Starting with iOS 8, we began encrypting data in a way that not even the iPhone itself can read without the user’s passcode, so if it is lost or stolen, our personal data, conversations, financial and health information are far more secure. We all know that turning back the clock on that progress would be a terrible idea." The last released non-beta iOS is 9.2. Bill Gates still owns some 13 billions in Microsoft stocks.

chroma 11y ago
Your Cook quote is DH3 on the disagreement hierarchy.[1] I agree with it, but it doesn't engage with any arguments for or against the court order. > Bill Gates still owns some 13 billions in Microsoft stocks. Do you really think Gates would dissemble, throw privacy under a bus, and draw the ire of his peers... just for a potential bump in net worth? I think it's far more likely that he believes what he says he believes. As much as the HN crowd likes to side with Apple on this matter, reasonable people can disagree about what's best. I hope Gates's position causes people to reflect on why they have the opinion they do. Gates doesn't have some shady ulterior motive. He's simply stating his opinion on the matter, and using some hastily-conceived analogies to explain it to the general public. That's all. 1. http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
- acqq 11y ago
  > > Bill Gates still owns some 13 billions in Microsoft stocks. > Do you really think Gates would dissemble, throw privacy under a bus, and draw the ire of his peers... just for a potential bump in net worth? Check which companies sided with Apple this time and which didn't, then compare with some other older cases, for example after Snowden's revelations, then you tell me how you see the current state this time. Almost certainly the phone doesn't contain anything relevant: it was just a business phone of the killer who actually took care to destroy his private phone and computer, the backup data out of the phone is already owned by the FBI and they just clumsily locked themselves out. Even if I can imagine Gates believes what he says the context matters and shouldn't be left unmentioned. Interests and affiliations of somebody influential making the public statement are certainly important to mention. Also to compare, Cook was almost presented guilty for trying to preserve the products of his company.

Johnny555 11y ago

Does he feel that Apple should also unlock the 12 other phones the Justice Department is reportedly also filing court orders for? http://gizmodo.com/justice-department-forcing-apple-to-unlock-about-12-oth-1760749507 http://gizmodo.com/justice-department-forcing-apple-to-unloc... The Justice Department is pursuing court orders to force Apple Inc. to help investigators extract data from iPhones in about a dozen undisclosed cases around the country... And what about when authorities in the UK also have cases where they "need" phones to be unlocked? And how about China? And every other government in the world that may want to have phones unlocked?

zer01 11y ago

>"It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records,” he said. “Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’." Seriously? It's absolutely different (not to mention his ribbon analogy makes no sense at all). I see all of this more a question of "can Americans actually have anything remain private on a commercial device?". I don't want anyone but me to have unfettered access to my data, regardless of if it's phone records, bank info, or my phone's contents. Here's hoping that the iPhone 7 has a secure enclave that either 1.) deletes keys on firmware flash, or 2.) doesn't allow it to be upgraded ever.

noxin 11y ago
> I see all of this more a question of "can Americans actually have anything remain private on a commercial device?". It's Americans now, but if Apple gives in, investigators from other big markets might pressure Apple to do the same for them. I think that's what's meant with cutting the ribbon many times.
- camillomiller 11y ago
  This debate is global. Why is it so hard to understand for most politicians? It's a matter of national security because the matter is not strictly national, and could have reverberation all over the world, especially in very sensitive markets like China.
saurik 11y ago
The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this as if they are being asked to build a backdoor instead of use an existing one is them being nothing more than dishonest in an attempt to twist the story and shift the blame. So yes: I think it is fair to describe the security of this device, from the perspective of Apple, as nothing more than a ribbon, as Apple already has "unfettered access to [your] data". Apple trusts users so little that they don't give users control of the hardware they own... this is frankly a good lesson on them that this is responsibility they should never have hoarded. "Here's hoping that the iPhone 7 no longer has a backdoor that is controlled by Apple."

p01926 11y ago

So why is Microsoft fighting us.gov regarding access to data stored in another country? Isn't that, to the layman, just another variety of ribbon-wrapped box. Gates should know that, just like extra-jurisdictional data retrieval, signed malware data retrieval is dangerous, bad business and awful precedent. He must publicly set the record straight for his company's stance to have any credibility.

simonh 11y ago
The reason Microsoft isn't releasing information stored in other countries is because doing so would break the law in those other countries. It would open Microsoft and its employees to prosecution in those countries. I disagree with Bill on phone security and agree with Apple's stance, but even so it's pretty clear to me that Microsoft has a stronger case and literally has no choice but to deny the US DOJ access to records held abroad.
tallanvor 11y ago
Bill Gates isn't in charge at Microsoft. Sure, he's still on the board, but he's not even the chairman anymore. It's possible that he disagrees with Microsoft fighting the government regarding access to data stored overseas, but is staying silent because he doesn't want to be seen as badmouthing current management.

StreamBright 11y ago

I disagree with Gates on this one, I think in the US that has common law legal systems, setting the precedent by unlocking (if possible) the iphone in question would be disastrous.

repsilat 11y ago
Legal precedents are only set in legal judgements, aren't they? I think Apple unlocking the phone would only set a cultural precedent.
- StreamBright 11y ago
  Isn't there a court case opened against Apple on this one? Sorry my legal knowledge is very limited but I think the official FBI request goes through a court. Maybe I am wrong, if somebody has the details I would love to read about it more.

dingo_bat 11y ago

Can anybody explain why unlocking just this specific phone is bad? Can't we decide on a case-by-case basis? It's not like Apple is being asked to backdoor all Iphones so FBI can read everyone's data. Just this specific one ordered by court. What am I missing?

riffraff 11y ago
Apple's position is that if they provide the FBI with the software, then the FBI will effectively be able to use it in every other situation. And once the software leaks, which will eventually happen, everyone will be able to do it in every situation. Moreover, every other government will ask for it, and not all governments meet the same moral standards.
hypron 11y ago
That's the entire point - if Apple designed a backdoor through their security into this specific iPhone, it could be used to backdoor into any iPhone.
_ikke_ 11y ago
In order to do so, Apple has to make an update that loosens the restrictions the current version has. Once that update exists, it can be installed on any device because it has been signed by Apple.
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saiya-jin 11y ago
my understanding - there is currently no software package created to allow this (ie modified kernel or whatever is necessary). government doesn't have resources/knowledge to do it on its own, otherwise they would already have it. once this is created, apple would pressed HARD by all authorities to re-use it for all iphones captured. these days we know damn too well that people in CIA, aNSA etc don't hold any reasonable moral values when it comes to privacy of about anybody on this planet. plus it could be taken from this specific phone and very probably copied anywhere, without any apple approval or court order. if government was playing mr nice guy till now, there would be at least some hope and faith. currently, there is simply none.

abpavel 11y ago

Bill Gates: "Let's say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said 'don't make me cut this ribbon because you'll make me cut it many times'" ...Well, that sums up his understanding of the the encryption technology. Then what are we to expect of the general public, when even Bill Gates sees a "ribbon around a disk drive"?

chroma 11y ago
I thought it was quite clear that Gates was making an analogy for non-technical readers. He doesn't really think of encrypted devices that way. Unfortunately, there's no way Gates can win here. If he uses technical language, journalists and/or readers won't understand. Or worse: they'll misunderstand his views. If he uses simplistic analogies, he invites mockery from technical readers.
- camillomiller 11y ago
  Yes, but in the second case he'll win the sympathy of the laymen who will think "hey, if even bill gates says they're wrong, maybe they're wrong. The guy's a genius". These people are less vocal than tech readers, but they vastly outnumber them.
  - chroma 11y ago
    I doubt Gates has any hidden motive behind his statements. He's just saying something he believes to be true, while trying to make sure others understand him. Why would he care about getting sympathy from laymen? He's the richest person on the planet. He's got more important stuff to do, like sparing millions of people from disease, poverty, and hunger.
    - camillomiller 11y ago
      Then it's even less understandable why should he muddle the waters with an ill conceived analogy like the "ribbon around a hard drive" one.

4684499 11y ago

No surprises, considering his attitude to Bitcoin.

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abpavel 11y ago

Coming from a man who created aptly named "Windows", where FBI never needs to ask for access.

ousta 11y ago

Is anyone doubting apple unlocked the iPhone? I don't understand B Gates stance. of course they did unlock and give it to the police. of course they will never say it in a PR and we all know why. Is anyone doubting that we are now living in a world where EVERY one of us is a potential suspect being processed in a set of crappy ML algorithms and stats where our faces, fingersprints, RFID cards are being captured at every instant of our lives? and don't worry IOT is coming. Alexa is already the premise of HAL except that the AI that controls the world will never happen. Much worse will happen. People that do not care about mankind or freedom will listen to our every moves, every instant of our lives.

saiya-jin 11y ago

well, what a coincidence, I guess MS phones aren't selling well, so let's undermine competition a bit. not for a second do I suspect mr gates to be stupid or not comprehending situation in full detail, with all possible consequences. and here I thought that he went from most hated IT guy on this planet in '90s to somebody actually concerned about good of the mankind. can somebody shed some light what would be his true motivations for these statements?

arihant 11y ago

No, Mr. Gates, cutting this ribbon would mean that all the other ribbons are cut by default. Not just by your allies, but by your not-so-friends in North Korea. It's not about cutting a ribbon. It's about putting a hard drive in a box that self destructs when you try to open it. What your friends are asking is not to cut a ribbon, but to make the box open safely with a master key. Your government could not even stop wikileaks and your own employee to turn against you -- how do you expect the world to trust them with master key? Overreaching beyond means and have it blow up in the face is quickly becoming an American virtue in the 21st century.

studentrob 11y ago

Gates does some great things but he's not thinking far enough into the future here. If our law enforcement cannot understand that terrorists will simply switch to use another encryption tool, then we have a much bigger problem than unlocking a single iPhone. Our security force does not know how to keep us safe. I'd rather they figure that out sooner than later.

bleachedsleet 11y ago

Anybody remember this? http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html

bleachedsleet 11y ago

Anybody remember this? http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html

cbeach 11y ago

"No computer will ever need more than 640K memory" - Bill Gates 1981 "There is no future in the Internet." - Bill Gates 1988

marak830 11y ago

Wow. Just wow. I keep thinking there is some huge cavet missing from the story, but if there isnt, that is massivly disconnected from reality. Call and message info, okay maybe, but full access? There is no way you can say thats fine. I have said it in an earlier comment and ill say it again, i think they are inly doing this, on this case, to make a precedent, and only on this case, as few people will want it to be on record, that they are 'siding' with terrorists. Imho, its bullshit, all the way through.

somberi 11y ago

In an interview with Rolling Stone's Jeff Goodell, the Microsoft co-founder and richest man in the world did not mince words when asked if he considered whether Snowden is a hero or a traitor. "I think he broke the law, so I certainly wouldn't characterize him as a hero," Gates said. "If he wanted to raise the issues and stay in the country and engage in civil disobedience or something of that kind, or if he had been careful in terms of what he had released, then it would fit more of the model of 'OK, I'm really trying to improve things.' You won't find much admiration from me." Gates said that there "has to be a debate" about government snooping, but indicated that some aspects of government surveillance are best left a secret. Microsoft has seen quite a bit of controversy regarding its alleged cooperation with the NSA. Last July, the Guardian reported that Microsoft had aided both the NSA and FBI in accessing user data, including providing video and audio conversations from Skype, Microsoft's video chat service. A Der Spiegel report in December also found that the NSA would use fake Windows error messages to spy on people. Ref: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-gates-snowden_n_4964311.html?section=india http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-gates-snowden_n_496... http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140313 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bill-gates-the-roll...

mathetic 11y ago

Bill Gates led a company that shipped products with poor security for decades just to maintain their first mover advantage. He actively and deliberately took part in abusing the fact that security is not the first thing assessed in a product. He might be a brilliant man, but he clearly doesn't have the vision when it comes to security and privacy.

frik 11y ago

Wasn't MSFT the first company to hand over all data to a three letter agency? Yes it was. So no surprise. Win10 was born in this context too. And he still owns billions worth of its stock.

castell 11y ago

@dang: why is this news not on the frontpage? I found out about this news on a local newspaper site - not good :( So how many people flagged this news? Which company IP address range were involved? Keep an eye on that. Thanks. It's on 285. right now: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone (techcrunch.com) 59 points by phesse14 5 hours ago 91 comments What's going on? On 212: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone for FBI (macrumors.com) 13 points by samstokes 7 hours ago 8 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11157328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11157328 And on 1: Bill Gates calls for terror data debate (bbc.com) 22 points by lentil_soup 52 minutes ago 4 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158647

dano 11y ago

Considering Windows 10 full disk encryption sends the keys to Microsoft, I am not surprised. https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-windows-computer-microsoft-probably-has-your-encryption-key/ https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-window...