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I disagree, and here's why it is different. If Apple had a "thing" and a warrant said "give us this thing", then Apple would be compelled to turn over the thing

I disagree, and here's why it is different. If Apple had a "thing" and a warrant said "give us this thing", then Apple would be compelled to turn over the thing. But Apple doesn't have this thing (the software to hack their own security). The government is saying "make us this thing", ie asking Apple to execute the warrant - which is unprecedented - it's the governments job to execute the warrant not a private company's.

marcoperaza 11y ago
So if instead, the government asked for Apple's source code, build system, code-signing key, and flashing hardware, would that be okay to you? It's not completely unprecedented to require active assistance from a third-party. There's a Supreme Court case about this very issue, United States vs New York Telephone Co. The FBI wanted New York Telephone to install monitoring hardware on their premises and assist the government in its operation. The district court issued an order to that effect. The company offered to instead give the FBI only information, which the FBI could then use to install and maintain the system themselves. The Supreme Court ultimately ruled in favor of the FBI. The main criteria that people have read out of that case is "unreasonable burden". I don't think that the FBI's request to Apple is an "unreasonable burden", especially since the government will pay for any costs. The biggest burden will be on Apple's reputation, but that is self-inflicted from making claims (honestly or not) that ultimately weren't true. I can't imagine the court allowing Apple to keep its technical assistance from the government.
- intrasight 11y ago
  Yeah, actually that would be ok with me. Because those are "things". But if there is a legal precedent for demanding services, then I guess my point is mute. I guess Apple could charge one billion dollars per person/hour. That MIGHT be enough to cover their costs.
vectorjohn 11y ago
Yes, Apple does have a "thing". And the thing is the signing certificates. The fact that some work is involved in using the thing makes no difference. Every demand requires some work. The fact that they're being asked to do thing A instead of thing B to get some outcome seems to be a weird place to draw the line. If it took hundreds of man hours to collect and properly separate out data for a single person to hand over to the FBI as evidence, they would be expected to do it. And they will even be compensated for it.

marcoperaza 11y ago

So if instead, the government asked for Apple's source code, build system, code-signing key, and flashing hardware, would that be okay to you? It's not completely unprecedented to require active assistance from a third-party. There's a Supreme Court case about this very issue, United States vs New York Telephone Co. The FBI wanted New York Telephone to install monitoring hardware on their premises and assist the government in its operation. The district court issued an order to that effect. The company offered to instead give the FBI only information, which the FBI could then use to install and maintain the system themselves. The Supreme Court ultimately ruled in favor of the FBI. The main criteria that people have read out of that case is "unreasonable burden". I don't think that the FBI's request to Apple is an "unreasonable burden", especially since the government will pay for any costs. The biggest burden will be on Apple's reputation, but that is self-inflicted from making claims (honestly or not) that ultimately weren't true. I can't imagine the court allowing Apple to keep its technical assistance from the government.

intrasight 11y ago
Yeah, actually that would be ok with me. Because those are "things". But if there is a legal precedent for demanding services, then I guess my point is mute. I guess Apple could charge one billion dollars per person/hour. That MIGHT be enough to cover their costs.

vectorjohn 11y ago

Yes, Apple does have a "thing". And the thing is the signing certificates. The fact that some work is involved in using the thing makes no difference. Every demand requires some work. The fact that they're being asked to do thing A instead of thing B to get some outcome seems to be a weird place to draw the line. If it took hundreds of man hours to collect and properly separate out data for a single person to hand over to the FBI as evidence, they would be expected to do it. And they will even be compensated for it.