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> And of course, that's also wrong. The only way to guarantee that such a powerful tool isn't abused it and doesn't fall into the wrong hands is to make it impo

> And of course, that's also wrong. The only way to guarantee that such a powerful tool isn't abused it and doesn't fall into the wrong hands is to make it impossible for such a tool to exist, not to refuse to create it. And Apple has done that: the type of hack the FBI is asking for cannot work on newer iPhones.

sbov 11y ago
Source? Current discussions surrounding your statement point to it being false - that Apple can update the firmware of the secure enclave without it wiping out it's data.
- gherkin0 11y ago
  > Source? Current discussions surrounding your statement point to it being false - that Apple can update the firmware of the secure enclave without it wiping out it's data. Do you have the source for that, too? I was still under the impression that the Secure Enclave would erase the keys if it's updated. It's a pretty huge flaw if the firmware can be updated and the keys preserved without first validating with the passcode.
  - smackfu 11y ago
    AFAIK, the only sources on this matter are the white papers that Apple has produced. You can't even attempt to update the firmware without having Apple's signing keys.
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-wit...
- jtuchsen 11y ago
  I think the confusion stems from the iOS security guide that Apple published. Page 7 of the guide states that "The Secure Enclave is a coprocessor fabricated in the Apple A7 or later A-series processor. It utilizes its own secure boot and personalized software update separate from the application processor," which implies that somehow updating it is more secure, without saying exactly how much control Apple has over updating it, and whether or not the phone needs to be unlocked before it accepts new firmware. Given that they haven't come out and said that they can't override the firmware for locked phones, I'd say they can. Although, before Apple's recent statements I would have assumed that they couldn't, so the confusions understandable. The guides at https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

sbov 11y ago

Source? Current discussions surrounding your statement point to it being false - that Apple can update the firmware of the secure enclave without it wiping out it's data.

gherkin0 11y ago
> Source? Current discussions surrounding your statement point to it being false - that Apple can update the firmware of the secure enclave without it wiping out it's data. Do you have the source for that, too? I was still under the impression that the Secure Enclave would erase the keys if it's updated. It's a pretty huge flaw if the firmware can be updated and the keys preserved without first validating with the passcode.
- smackfu 11y ago
  AFAIK, the only sources on this matter are the white papers that Apple has produced. You can't even attempt to update the firmware without having Apple's signing keys.
- ikeboy 11y ago
  https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-wit...
jtuchsen 11y ago
I think the confusion stems from the iOS security guide that Apple published. Page 7 of the guide states that "The Secure Enclave is a coprocessor fabricated in the Apple A7 or later A-series processor. It utilizes its own secure boot and personalized software update separate from the application processor," which implies that somehow updating it is more secure, without saying exactly how much control Apple has over updating it, and whether or not the phone needs to be unlocked before it accepts new firmware. Given that they haven't come out and said that they can't override the firmware for locked phones, I'd say they can. Although, before Apple's recent statements I would have assumed that they couldn't, so the confusions understandable. The guides at https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf