8 ms·

As someone who has been on the job market for a long time recently, I am not encouraged by this. What I've observed is that in response to chronic talent short

by p4wnc6 11y ago

As someone who has been on the job market for a long time recently, I am not encouraged by this. What I've observed is that in response to chronic talent shortages, larger organizations prefer to downsize, cut corners, scale-back offerings, and produce output of lower quality. Meanwhile, smaller organizations do not have the budgets necessary, so they try to portray working for them as a lifestyle choice. They offer foosball, on-site beer or coffee, and meaningless amounts of largely worthless equity. What both types absolutely will not do is to compete via wages, benefits, or healthful employment accommodations (for example, private working spaces instead of undifferentiated desks in an open-plan office). The "challenge" of recruitment is not how to attract qualified (let alone 'the best') candidates ... rather it is how to reframe the business such that high quality is not required for executives to maintain their lifestyles. It's a massive flight from quality. It's very frightening.

ktRolster 11y ago
> As someone who has been on the job market for a long time recently, That's too bad. Have you done anything to increase your skills?
- p4wnc6 11y ago
  Yes, many things. Interviewers are often ecstatic about my skills and experiences, but ultimately say they would prefer to hire people less-skilled who are cheaper and (especially) more willing to sublimate away basic human needs (such as for privacy or vacation) while still working for lower wage.
  - ktRolster 11y ago
    Suggest working on your interpersonal skills (soft skills)
    - p4wnc6 11y ago
      I do work on communication skills and I will continue to do so. This is solid advice for all technical workers. But I would also like to add that I have often been complimented by my bosses on my ability to communicate technical concepts in very entertaining and understandable ways. At one recent interview, an HR representative from the firm told me that the only feedback she received that was better than the feedback about my technical skills was the feedback that I would "mesh instantly" with the team and they all enjoyed my sense of humor. Sadly, that role was only budgeted to pay around 50% of what I had earned previously and there was no way to compromise. I have occasionally worked in situations where a manager disapproved of my proactive nature and I need to improve my communication skills in those situations. It is very reminiscent of the type of situation from a recent research paper [0] about how extraverted managers tend to suppress the talents of proactive, introverted subordinates. Thus far, I feel my communication skills have been one of my strongest assets and strongest attractive features for potential employers. But I do agree that I (like anyone) need to continue to work on them. [0] "Reversing The Extraverted Leadership Advantage: The Role of Employee Proactivity" (2011); Grant, Gino, and Hofmann < http://homepages.se.edu/cvonbergen/files/2013/01/Reversing-the-Extraverted-Leadership-Advantage_The-Role-of-Employee-Proactivity.pdf http://homepages.se.edu/cvonbergen/files/2013/01/Reversing-t... >
      - ktRolster 11y ago
        > Thus far, I feel my communication skills have been one > of my strongest assets and strongest attractive features > for potential employers. Well, you are absolutely wrong. Your communication comes across as defensive, angry, defiant, and self-important. It's a major turnoff.
        p4wnc6 11y ago
        I am not claiming that my communication is good. I am only saying that in all the jobs I have had and many interviews, my communication and explanatory skill has been praised and cited as a positive attribute by others. It has been a strong asset for me ... that much is simply empirical fact. But I thank you for saying that you find my communication style defensive, angry, defiant, and self-important. I apologize to you for coming across that way. It means I am failing to write my true feelings and I am not living up to the high standard of communication that I set for myself even in a medium like Hacker News comments. It is helpful to hear this criticism from you, even if it's uncomfortable, because it gives me the chance to reflect on what I've written and try to discover how I could communicate it in a way that still expresses my personal values (such as the failure of open-plan offices) but without giving the incorrect impressions of e.g. defiance or self-importance. Thank you for sharing your thoughts about it with me. I sincerely appreciate it.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    Might I suggest giving Ruby a shot? Companies that use Ruby generally look for more experienced devs.
    - p4wnc6 11y ago
      I would love to learn Ruby -- it is a beautiful language. But I am unaware of the scientific and data-science world for Ruby. I am not seeking front-end work, and Ruby has a (perhaps undeserved?) reputation of mainly providing jobs of that variety.
      - vinceguidry 11y ago
        I interviewed on Friday for a company called Emcien that does data science work. http://emcien.com/ http://emcien.com/ If you're willing to move to Atlanta, they're an option. Send me an email if interested, look in my profile. Heck, even if you're not, they're still worth talking to.
Diederich 11y ago
If I may ask, roughly what area of the job market are you targeting?
- p4wnc6 11y ago
  I have prior experience in quantitative finance, analytics consulting, and education technology. Here is my Stack Overflow Careers profile: < http://careers.stackoverflow.com/ely http://careers.stackoverflow.com/ely >. My primary experience is in Python, ranging from low-level stuff with llvmlite and writing extension modules in Cython, to database management stuff with SQLAlchemy, through on to tons of stuff with numpy/pandas/etc. I have about 8 years of scientific Python experience if you count grad school, and a little over 4 years of professional work experience. My background is in applied statistics (mostly machine learning for image processing as well as a lot of MCMC methods). I care a lot about software quality and best practices. I also have some experience in one job doing functional programming, and my best functional language is Haskell. I think I'm most motivated by strong attention to quality, so as long as that is a heavy part of the team's ethos, I would be pretty happy working on a wide range of scientific computing / data-focused topical areas of work. But what I find time and again is that people want me to sit in a large open-plan office with undifferentiated desks, where you can't think straight, while cutting every possible quality corner to crank out code for deeply uninteresting parochial business logic. I could happily compromise on some of those things (and every job will have its downsides, which is OK). But I can't find even one job that doesn't require compromising all of those things.
  - aidenn0 11y ago
    Are you currently still in Fort Wayne? I graduated from Purdue 10 years ago, and was interested in staying in the midwest, but my best job offer was a 1 year contract at less than half the wages I took in California as a full-time employee. Fort Wayne is cheaper than Santa Barbara, but not that much cheaper. Furthermore friends who stayed in Indiana describe work conditions very similar to what you mention here. One friend of mine switched from being a developer to a DBA and said everything except being on-call more was a huge improvement: much higher pay, more respect and if he did well it made a difference: his previous two jobs were such that he would get in no way rewarded more (not even someone else noticing) for quality code versus code that implemented only 60% of the features with tons of bugs. Everyone notices if the database goes down.

by p4wnc6 11y ago

ktRolster 11y ago

> As someone who has been on the job market for a long time recently, That's too bad. Have you done anything to increase your skills?

p4wnc6 11y ago
Yes, many things. Interviewers are often ecstatic about my skills and experiences, but ultimately say they would prefer to hire people less-skilled who are cheaper and (especially) more willing to sublimate away basic human needs (such as for privacy or vacation) while still working for lower wage.
- ktRolster 11y ago
  Suggest working on your interpersonal skills (soft skills)
  - p4wnc6 11y ago
    I do work on communication skills and I will continue to do so. This is solid advice for all technical workers. But I would also like to add that I have often been complimented by my bosses on my ability to communicate technical concepts in very entertaining and understandable ways. At one recent interview, an HR representative from the firm told me that the only feedback she received that was better than the feedback about my technical skills was the feedback that I would "mesh instantly" with the team and they all enjoyed my sense of humor. Sadly, that role was only budgeted to pay around 50% of what I had earned previously and there was no way to compromise. I have occasionally worked in situations where a manager disapproved of my proactive nature and I need to improve my communication skills in those situations. It is very reminiscent of the type of situation from a recent research paper [0] about how extraverted managers tend to suppress the talents of proactive, introverted subordinates. Thus far, I feel my communication skills have been one of my strongest assets and strongest attractive features for potential employers. But I do agree that I (like anyone) need to continue to work on them. [0] "Reversing The Extraverted Leadership Advantage: The Role of Employee Proactivity" (2011); Grant, Gino, and Hofmann < http://homepages.se.edu/cvonbergen/files/2013/01/Reversing-the-Extraverted-Leadership-Advantage_The-Role-of-Employee-Proactivity.pdf http://homepages.se.edu/cvonbergen/files/2013/01/Reversing-t... >
    - ktRolster 11y ago
      > Thus far, I feel my communication skills have been one > of my strongest assets and strongest attractive features > for potential employers. Well, you are absolutely wrong. Your communication comes across as defensive, angry, defiant, and self-important. It's a major turnoff.
      - p4wnc6 11y ago
        I am not claiming that my communication is good. I am only saying that in all the jobs I have had and many interviews, my communication and explanatory skill has been praised and cited as a positive attribute by others. It has been a strong asset for me ... that much is simply empirical fact. But I thank you for saying that you find my communication style defensive, angry, defiant, and self-important. I apologize to you for coming across that way. It means I am failing to write my true feelings and I am not living up to the high standard of communication that I set for myself even in a medium like Hacker News comments. It is helpful to hear this criticism from you, even if it's uncomfortable, because it gives me the chance to reflect on what I've written and try to discover how I could communicate it in a way that still expresses my personal values (such as the failure of open-plan offices) but without giving the incorrect impressions of e.g. defiance or self-importance. Thank you for sharing your thoughts about it with me. I sincerely appreciate it.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  Might I suggest giving Ruby a shot? Companies that use Ruby generally look for more experienced devs.
  - p4wnc6 11y ago
    I would love to learn Ruby -- it is a beautiful language. But I am unaware of the scientific and data-science world for Ruby. I am not seeking front-end work, and Ruby has a (perhaps undeserved?) reputation of mainly providing jobs of that variety.
    - vinceguidry 11y ago
      I interviewed on Friday for a company called Emcien that does data science work. http://emcien.com/ http://emcien.com/ If you're willing to move to Atlanta, they're an option. Send me an email if interested, look in my profile. Heck, even if you're not, they're still worth talking to.

Diederich 11y ago

If I may ask, roughly what area of the job market are you targeting?

p4wnc6 11y ago
I have prior experience in quantitative finance, analytics consulting, and education technology. Here is my Stack Overflow Careers profile: < http://careers.stackoverflow.com/ely http://careers.stackoverflow.com/ely >. My primary experience is in Python, ranging from low-level stuff with llvmlite and writing extension modules in Cython, to database management stuff with SQLAlchemy, through on to tons of stuff with numpy/pandas/etc. I have about 8 years of scientific Python experience if you count grad school, and a little over 4 years of professional work experience. My background is in applied statistics (mostly machine learning for image processing as well as a lot of MCMC methods). I care a lot about software quality and best practices. I also have some experience in one job doing functional programming, and my best functional language is Haskell. I think I'm most motivated by strong attention to quality, so as long as that is a heavy part of the team's ethos, I would be pretty happy working on a wide range of scientific computing / data-focused topical areas of work. But what I find time and again is that people want me to sit in a large open-plan office with undifferentiated desks, where you can't think straight, while cutting every possible quality corner to crank out code for deeply uninteresting parochial business logic. I could happily compromise on some of those things (and every job will have its downsides, which is OK). But I can't find even one job that doesn't require compromising all of those things.
- aidenn0 11y ago
  Are you currently still in Fort Wayne? I graduated from Purdue 10 years ago, and was interested in staying in the midwest, but my best job offer was a 1 year contract at less than half the wages I took in California as a full-time employee. Fort Wayne is cheaper than Santa Barbara, but not that much cheaper. Furthermore friends who stayed in Indiana describe work conditions very similar to what you mention here. One friend of mine switched from being a developer to a DBA and said everything except being on-call more was a huge improvement: much higher pay, more respect and if he did well it made a difference: his previous two jobs were such that he would get in no way rewarded more (not even someone else noticing) for quality code versus code that implemented only 60% of the features with tons of bugs. Everyone notices if the database goes down.