8 ms·

Like he said, it's all about the narrative. Let me demonstrate. Pretend you're an average voter who has never heard of "Hacker" News. "Encryption is used by te

Like he said, it's all about the narrative. Let me demonstrate. Pretend you're an average voter who has never heard of "Hacker" News. "Encryption is used by terrorists and evil-doers to hide their nefarious plans to harm Americans and American values. Innocent and hard-working Americans have nothing to hide. Only those who wish to harm us do. Had Apple allowed the FBI to listen on emails and conversations and text messages, San Bernardino would not have happened".

studentrob 11y ago
Pretend I'm the token IT guy in your friend network, "The FBI request to unlock Apple phones will not make you more safe. Criminals will use an alternative encryption device or app to communicate, or create their own." It shouldn't take long to disprove the government's claim.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  The scary part is that doesn't appear to be enough anymore. People are fundamentally irrational and are willing to believe the media narrative without attempting to think about the consequences critically.
  - studentrob 11y ago
    It's too soon to get a feel for the media narrative, but, what do you think that will be? Doesn't Apple buy ads? Our media isn't always pro-government, thankfully, so let's see what comes out. So far I see reports of Cook's statement, the Apple Q&A, and Comey's letter. Some are opinionated but most are just telling the story.
    - fweespeech 11y ago
      > It's too soon to get a feel for the media narrative, but, what do you think that will be? Doesn't Apple buy ads? Apple buys Ads but Apple "cares" only because of the PR value of encrypting things and the fact enough of Apple's younger crowd would ditch them that it would eat into their quarterly profits. However, if its in the corner of losing 5% of their customers vs. a major legal war with the US Government, I'm not sure they'll choose to fight much [if at all]. Apple buys Ads, yes, but so do 29103423904092334902 other companies. If Apple stops, they can get their money elsewhere. I've already heard tons of people insisting Apple shouldn't be allowed to encrypt phones, so I'd say the media narrative is already playing out to Apple's detriment. > Our media isn't always pro-government, thankfully, so let's see what comes out. So far I see reports of Cook's statement, the Apple Q&A, and Comey's letter. Some are opinionated but most are just telling the story. The vast majority of people IRL think I'm paranoid for believing: 1) Our law enforcement agencies are engaging in unreasonable levels of domestic mass surveillance. http://abc7.com/news/anaheim-police-eavesdropping-on-personal-calls-aclu-alleges/1177266/ http://abc7.com/news/anaheim-police-eavesdropping-on-persona... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/anaheim-cops-spy-program_us_56aa5ac3e4b0d82286d53737 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/anaheim-cops-spy-program... http://www.allgov.com/usa/ca/news/top-stories/lapd-has-had-stingray-on-steroids-surveillance-equipment-for-a-decade-150812?news=857184 http://www.allgov.com/usa/ca/news/top-stories/lapd-has-had-s... http://www.computerworld.com/article/2930731/security0/surveillance-by-fbis-fleet-of-spy-planes-raises-privacy-questions.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2930731/security0/surve... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/heres-everything-we-know-about-prism-to-date/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/heres... 2) Terrorists are less dangerous than medical errors and other problems. The emphasis on their existence and the threat they pose appears to be intentionally propagandized to enable #1. http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-g... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/23/youre-more-likely-to-be-fatally-crushed-by-furniture-than-killed-by-a-terrorist/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/2... http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/deaths-by-medical-mistakes-hit-records http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/deaths-by-medical-mista... 3) I believe a large part of why people believe I'm paranoid is they largely operate in a soundbite environment when it comes to the news [largely by watching news from news networks, etc] rather than bothering to read it. The surveillance related issues seem to be largely only reported in written form and have relatively low circulation outside of media coverage of Snowden. People have already mostly forgotten / stopped caring.
      - studentrob 11y ago
        You're thinking about too many things and lumping them all under the same narrative, that people are apathetic. Plenty of people still care about things, and the fact that you can come up with this list shows you do too. Sometimes people just need to hear something said in a different way, and sometimes you just can't reach them. It's okay if some people don't hear you. If any people do become more informed because of your message then you have succeeded.
- jezclaremurugan 11y ago
  How many people have a token IT guy in their friend network? and how much do they respect what he/she says when it contradicts their familiar narrative? Why have those IT guys not been able to stop their friends from downloading/installing stupid stuff and so on? Just pointing out that the IT guy may not have much sway over the general population.
  - studentrob 11y ago
    I'm sure it varies, but it wasn't hard for me to convince my friends, and that's not because they respect me, it's because it's an easily explainable thing. If we're talking about character-based influence though, then we should also consider how people perceive Apple and the government. People love Apple products, and law enforcement overreach videos and stories have been circulating a lot lately.
  - noobiemcfoob 11y ago
    This is a great point. IT professionals tend to overestimate both their numbers in and influence on the general population.
- rayiner 11y ago
  I think even the token IT guy is wondering how the FBI's request to break specific iPhones in their possession is going to undermine iPhone security for everybody.
  - forgotpwtomain 11y ago
    > I think even the token IT guy is wondering how the FBI's request to break specific iPhones in their possession is going to undermine iPhone security for everybody. Could you elaborate on how the precedent of signing a custom IOS release for a specific target IPhone is distinctly different and cannot be interpolated to further and broader requests? For example a request for custom IOS version which the FBI can install on other target phones themselves? The other point to consider is that if the US government can compel companies to create and sign custom binaries there are other governments (China) that I'm sure would love to play at the same game. From a security standpoint it would be best for everyone if what the FBI is currently asking was entirely impossible in the first place.
  - studentrob 11y ago
    Hmm if his only source of IT news is The Guardian then I'd agree with you, but most of us go a little deeper than surface level. That's how we came to be in IT in the first place.
  - twoodfin 11y ago
    I'm actually wondering this, too. Is there a technological reason why Apple fulfilling this request makes their (not subject-to-warrant) customers less secure? Why isn't their private code-signing key the linchpin? I fully buy that there are legal, cultural, and diplomatic reasons that this could make Apple's customers less secure in the long run by setting a precedent, etc. I guess one argument is that whatever code they write to tie the "weaponized" iOS update to a particular device could have bugs.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      It won't have 'bugs'. It'll be written to allow FBI access at will. That's the next step, right?
harryh 11y ago
Wire taps and other methods of law enforcement snooping on otherwise private conversations are routinely used to convict people of crimes. In a world of pervasive encryption this will no longer be possible. You're perfectly welcome to argue that pervasive encryption is coming whether the government wants it or not, so it might as well get used to it. You're also perfectly welcome that the benefits of pervasive encryption outweigh the costs. I might even agree with you on both points. But to deny the costs is to deny reality.

studentrob 11y ago

Pretend I'm the token IT guy in your friend network, "The FBI request to unlock Apple phones will not make you more safe. Criminals will use an alternative encryption device or app to communicate, or create their own." It shouldn't take long to disprove the government's claim.

fweespeech 11y ago
The scary part is that doesn't appear to be enough anymore. People are fundamentally irrational and are willing to believe the media narrative without attempting to think about the consequences critically.
- studentrob 11y ago
  It's too soon to get a feel for the media narrative, but, what do you think that will be? Doesn't Apple buy ads? Our media isn't always pro-government, thankfully, so let's see what comes out. So far I see reports of Cook's statement, the Apple Q&A, and Comey's letter. Some are opinionated but most are just telling the story.
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    > It's too soon to get a feel for the media narrative, but, what do you think that will be? Doesn't Apple buy ads? Apple buys Ads but Apple "cares" only because of the PR value of encrypting things and the fact enough of Apple's younger crowd would ditch them that it would eat into their quarterly profits. However, if its in the corner of losing 5% of their customers vs. a major legal war with the US Government, I'm not sure they'll choose to fight much [if at all]. Apple buys Ads, yes, but so do 29103423904092334902 other companies. If Apple stops, they can get their money elsewhere. I've already heard tons of people insisting Apple shouldn't be allowed to encrypt phones, so I'd say the media narrative is already playing out to Apple's detriment. > Our media isn't always pro-government, thankfully, so let's see what comes out. So far I see reports of Cook's statement, the Apple Q&A, and Comey's letter. Some are opinionated but most are just telling the story. The vast majority of people IRL think I'm paranoid for believing: 1) Our law enforcement agencies are engaging in unreasonable levels of domestic mass surveillance. http://abc7.com/news/anaheim-police-eavesdropping-on-personal-calls-aclu-alleges/1177266/ http://abc7.com/news/anaheim-police-eavesdropping-on-persona... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/anaheim-cops-spy-program_us_56aa5ac3e4b0d82286d53737 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/anaheim-cops-spy-program... http://www.allgov.com/usa/ca/news/top-stories/lapd-has-had-stingray-on-steroids-surveillance-equipment-for-a-decade-150812?news=857184 http://www.allgov.com/usa/ca/news/top-stories/lapd-has-had-s... http://www.computerworld.com/article/2930731/security0/surveillance-by-fbis-fleet-of-spy-planes-raises-privacy-questions.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2930731/security0/surve... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/heres-everything-we-know-about-prism-to-date/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/heres... 2) Terrorists are less dangerous than medical errors and other problems. The emphasis on their existence and the threat they pose appears to be intentionally propagandized to enable #1. http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-g... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/23/youre-more-likely-to-be-fatally-crushed-by-furniture-than-killed-by-a-terrorist/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/2... http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/deaths-by-medical-mistakes-hit-records http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/deaths-by-medical-mista... 3) I believe a large part of why people believe I'm paranoid is they largely operate in a soundbite environment when it comes to the news [largely by watching news from news networks, etc] rather than bothering to read it. The surveillance related issues seem to be largely only reported in written form and have relatively low circulation outside of media coverage of Snowden. People have already mostly forgotten / stopped caring.
    - studentrob 11y ago
      You're thinking about too many things and lumping them all under the same narrative, that people are apathetic. Plenty of people still care about things, and the fact that you can come up with this list shows you do too. Sometimes people just need to hear something said in a different way, and sometimes you just can't reach them. It's okay if some people don't hear you. If any people do become more informed because of your message then you have succeeded.
jezclaremurugan 11y ago
How many people have a token IT guy in their friend network? and how much do they respect what he/she says when it contradicts their familiar narrative? Why have those IT guys not been able to stop their friends from downloading/installing stupid stuff and so on? Just pointing out that the IT guy may not have much sway over the general population.
- studentrob 11y ago
  I'm sure it varies, but it wasn't hard for me to convince my friends, and that's not because they respect me, it's because it's an easily explainable thing. If we're talking about character-based influence though, then we should also consider how people perceive Apple and the government. People love Apple products, and law enforcement overreach videos and stories have been circulating a lot lately.
- noobiemcfoob 11y ago
  This is a great point. IT professionals tend to overestimate both their numbers in and influence on the general population.
rayiner 11y ago
I think even the token IT guy is wondering how the FBI's request to break specific iPhones in their possession is going to undermine iPhone security for everybody.
- forgotpwtomain 11y ago
  > I think even the token IT guy is wondering how the FBI's request to break specific iPhones in their possession is going to undermine iPhone security for everybody. Could you elaborate on how the precedent of signing a custom IOS release for a specific target IPhone is distinctly different and cannot be interpolated to further and broader requests? For example a request for custom IOS version which the FBI can install on other target phones themselves? The other point to consider is that if the US government can compel companies to create and sign custom binaries there are other governments (China) that I'm sure would love to play at the same game. From a security standpoint it would be best for everyone if what the FBI is currently asking was entirely impossible in the first place.
- studentrob 11y ago
  Hmm if his only source of IT news is The Guardian then I'd agree with you, but most of us go a little deeper than surface level. That's how we came to be in IT in the first place.
- twoodfin 11y ago
  I'm actually wondering this, too. Is there a technological reason why Apple fulfilling this request makes their (not subject-to-warrant) customers less secure? Why isn't their private code-signing key the linchpin? I fully buy that there are legal, cultural, and diplomatic reasons that this could make Apple's customers less secure in the long run by setting a precedent, etc. I guess one argument is that whatever code they write to tie the "weaponized" iOS update to a particular device could have bugs.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    It won't have 'bugs'. It'll be written to allow FBI access at will. That's the next step, right?

harryh 11y ago

Wire taps and other methods of law enforcement snooping on otherwise private conversations are routinely used to convict people of crimes. In a world of pervasive encryption this will no longer be possible. You're perfectly welcome to argue that pervasive encryption is coming whether the government wants it or not, so it might as well get used to it. You're also perfectly welcome that the benefits of pervasive encryption outweigh the costs. I might even agree with you on both points. But to deny the costs is to deny reality.