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>They're trying to come up with sub specifications to encompass more types of network use cases rather than thinking "xG is for cellular phones" it'll be more l

by xorlord 11y ago

>They're trying to come up with sub specifications to encompass more types of network use cases rather than thinking "xG is for cellular phones" it'll be more like 5Gx is spectrum/protocol for home internet, 5Gy is the spectrum/protocol the phone uses. Although from a marketing prospective this will sound like "Bring 5G to your home." Intermingling the data and transport layers initially strikes me as a bad thing. What am I missing?

kalleboo 11y ago
I imagine supporting signaling in motion and with limited battery and heat budget has a very different profile than at a fixed point with task-specific hardware.
jerf 11y ago
That the data and transport layers are almost always intermingled, because the "OSI network model" you were taught about in school is basically a lie. (At least inasmuch as it is claimed to describe anything in the real world. As a source of vocabulary, it's at least OK, though it does suffer from people using numbers where I would rather they used the names of the layers. Much like RAID terminology is still impenetrable to me despite the several dozen times I've read the definitions.)
- mafribe 11y ago
  data and transport layers are almost always intermingled In what sense other than NATing, which has been a stop-gap measure to deal with IPv4 address shortage? TCP/UDP sit on top of the network layer, not the data (link) layer. And the two main requirements that TCP/UDP make of the network layer is (1) that all network layer connected devices (interfaces) have a unique address and (2) you can send packets between any two network connected devices (interfaces) in a best-effort way. What the transport layer adds on top of that is - multiplexing of network layer addresses (TCP and UDP use port numbers for this) so multiple processes can share a single network layer connection and - error detection/correction (TCP only) to transform the unreliable (best effort) service the network layer offers into a reliable service. - Streaming (TCP only): the sender's data stream that a TCP client creates is split into packets and later reassembled. I think it's a beautiful separation of concerns.
  - jerf 11y ago
    That's still the beautiful model you're referencing, not the reality of networking. If you saw what the actual network devices in the stack were doing, you would be... less impressed by the beauty, let's say. But they work, and they're fast. That has beauty of its own. And I mean real network hardware through which the packets your received these words are, too, not just abstract theoretical "somebody's got something somewhere that does something weird". The model hasn't been accurate since before it was created.
    - mafribe 11y ago
      If you saw what In a nutshell, what are networking devices doing that mixes network and transport services (other than NATing)?
  - condescendence 11y ago
    To add what Jerf said, the edit to my original comment says: >On a small note, this is "finalized" pdf but in reality it will change when implementation occurs. It's one thing to say, here's the specification, however like construction you get to the site and then you realize oh shit, this isn't going to work. So they amend changes to make it work. In a perfect world they should have gone back to the engineers/architects and reported their findings so they can make the changes to the white paper accordingly. But this almost never happens, same thing in the tech industry. That's why when they go back on site to fix a pipe leak they drill into the electrical conduit because they moved the whole line to the right 3 feet and never told anyone.

by xorlord 11y ago

kalleboo 11y ago

I imagine supporting signaling in motion and with limited battery and heat budget has a very different profile than at a fixed point with task-specific hardware.

jerf 11y ago

That the data and transport layers are almost always intermingled, because the "OSI network model" you were taught about in school is basically a lie. (At least inasmuch as it is claimed to describe anything in the real world. As a source of vocabulary, it's at least OK, though it does suffer from people using numbers where I would rather they used the names of the layers. Much like RAID terminology is still impenetrable to me despite the several dozen times I've read the definitions.)

mafribe 11y ago
data and transport layers are almost always intermingled In what sense other than NATing, which has been a stop-gap measure to deal with IPv4 address shortage? TCP/UDP sit on top of the network layer, not the data (link) layer. And the two main requirements that TCP/UDP make of the network layer is (1) that all network layer connected devices (interfaces) have a unique address and (2) you can send packets between any two network connected devices (interfaces) in a best-effort way. What the transport layer adds on top of that is - multiplexing of network layer addresses (TCP and UDP use port numbers for this) so multiple processes can share a single network layer connection and - error detection/correction (TCP only) to transform the unreliable (best effort) service the network layer offers into a reliable service. - Streaming (TCP only): the sender's data stream that a TCP client creates is split into packets and later reassembled. I think it's a beautiful separation of concerns.
- jerf 11y ago
  That's still the beautiful model you're referencing, not the reality of networking. If you saw what the actual network devices in the stack were doing, you would be... less impressed by the beauty, let's say. But they work, and they're fast. That has beauty of its own. And I mean real network hardware through which the packets your received these words are, too, not just abstract theoretical "somebody's got something somewhere that does something weird". The model hasn't been accurate since before it was created.
  - mafribe 11y ago
    If you saw what In a nutshell, what are networking devices doing that mixes network and transport services (other than NATing)?
- condescendence 11y ago
  To add what Jerf said, the edit to my original comment says: >On a small note, this is "finalized" pdf but in reality it will change when implementation occurs. It's one thing to say, here's the specification, however like construction you get to the site and then you realize oh shit, this isn't going to work. So they amend changes to make it work. In a perfect world they should have gone back to the engineers/architects and reported their findings so they can make the changes to the white paper accordingly. But this almost never happens, same thing in the tech industry. That's why when they go back on site to fix a pipe leak they drill into the electrical conduit because they moved the whole line to the right 3 feet and never told anyone.