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We are going to have the technological equivalent of a Babel fish [1] soon, so we should expect that basically everyone will just learn their native language un

We are going to have the technological equivalent of a Babel fish [1] soon, so we should expect that basically everyone will just learn their native language unless they like learning languages as a hobby. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Babel_fish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_T...

jes5199 11y ago
But we don't actually know what having access to a babelfish does to language learning. It's easy to assume it would make learning a second language obsolete, but a counterproposal is that it makes the other language(s) more accessible to learn - for example, I've picked up enough Chinese characters to navigate a Chinese ecommerce site by using Google Translate until I started to recognize patterns myself
- danieltillett 11y ago
  This is true, but given human nature it unlikely that people will both to go to the effort of learning a second or third language once there is an easier approach.
  - curun1r 11y ago
    Which is a shame, since the value of learning a second (or third, fourth, fifth, etc) language isn't limited to being able to converse with the people who speak it. Learning a new language can help you understand the world and yourself to a greater degree than is possible when you're forced to think inside the confines of a single language. It's a trippy feeling the first time you realize that you're unable to translate something from an acquired language into your native language not because you don't understand what you're attempting to translate, but because none of the words in your native tongue feel right. But it eventually starts to happen a lot and you realize that there's so much that you weren't able to easily conceptualize because you were constrained by the limits of your native tongue.
    - Swizec 11y ago
      There is an established theory that language shapes your thoughts. If you only know one language, then you are confined to a single way of thinking. Another interesting phenomena is that you are more logical in a 2nd or 3rd language than you are in your mother tongue, where you are more emotional. This can be a useful superpower.
      - danieltillett 11y ago
        I have a personal hobby of trying to find one of these thoughts that only can be thought of in one language and not another and I have yet to find one. All modern languages seem to be able to be used to express all human thoughts that can be expressed with any language.
        Swizec 11y ago
        In english it is very common to say that you are a "mommy" or "daddy" of your pet. It sounds normal and acceptable. In Slovenian it sounds like you're a mental patient who thinks they gave birth to a dog. So most people switch to English to express said sentiment since we imported it from US television. Even though we have a direct translation for the word "mommy", all the submeanings do not directly translate. So we sometimes use them as separate different words.
        danieltillett 11y ago
        I have to say even in English you sound like you are unhinged if you say you are the mommy or daddy of a pet. The concept here that is trying to be expressed is that you are the loving owner of the pet - loving like a parent is of a child. I am sure that this concept exists in Slovenian even if expressed using different words.
        panglott 11y ago
        People have begun to say this in the US, and it drives me nuts as a native speaker of English. I do not find it normal or acceptable. If you want kids, have kids or adopt them. Don't take an animal and twist it into filling your own emotional needs by treating it like a human infant.
- mirimir 11y ago
  In Firefox, the Perapera plugin is far easier.
carlob 11y ago
I think that with global media we're much closer to having a generation where everybody at least understands English, than getting to the point where automatic translation is pleasant enough that you could read Anna Karenina translated by a machine and find it enjoyable. But then again robots can make cars, yet some people still buy hand-made supercars. So probably translators will have to stick around to translate art.
- vorg 11y ago
  When a Chinese, Japanese, and Korean talk to each other in English, they often can't understand an American who joins in the conversation. Perhaps Basic English, without nativisms like "stick around".
  - mwcampbell 11y ago
    Maybe we native speakers should consider it an obligation to learn to speak and write in basic English without idioms, phrasal verbs, and other gratuitous features that make the language more difficult for non-native speakers.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Like "consider it"
    - panglott 11y ago
      Sorry, native speakers with language privilege will never give up on the idea that they speak "real" English, and the the "bad" English non-native speakers speak among themselves is anything other than a bastard pidgin. What international business English would need is dictionaries, grammars, lesson courses, and people willing to have their kids speak it INSTEAD OF British- or American-standard English.
DrScump 11y ago
[1] should be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Babel_fish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_T... (general note: please use desktop rather than mobile-specific URLs wherever possible. In this case, the mobile fragment identifier gets mishandled on desktop browsers, going to the "Shaltanacs" section instead. The desktop URL with fragment identifier works on mobile and desktop alike.)
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Interesting bug there for wiki. I just checked and the link is broken on mobile for the desktop version too.
panglott 11y ago
We will not have a technological Babel fish until we have portable (power-efficient) computers that are both 1. roughly as or more intelligent as a human and 2. understands the world in the same way as a human, including both semantics and pragmatics of such things as humor. This is not anything realistic in anything like the near term. Most of the automated translation software I've used can't even handle something like deixis through a text between two such well-studied and similar languages as English and Spanish. You're talking about a device that could translate between Scots, Tamil, and Huasteca Nahuatl. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU

jes5199 11y ago

But we don't actually know what having access to a babelfish does to language learning. It's easy to assume it would make learning a second language obsolete, but a counterproposal is that it makes the other language(s) more accessible to learn - for example, I've picked up enough Chinese characters to navigate a Chinese ecommerce site by using Google Translate until I started to recognize patterns myself

danieltillett 11y ago
This is true, but given human nature it unlikely that people will both to go to the effort of learning a second or third language once there is an easier approach.
- curun1r 11y ago
  Which is a shame, since the value of learning a second (or third, fourth, fifth, etc) language isn't limited to being able to converse with the people who speak it. Learning a new language can help you understand the world and yourself to a greater degree than is possible when you're forced to think inside the confines of a single language. It's a trippy feeling the first time you realize that you're unable to translate something from an acquired language into your native language not because you don't understand what you're attempting to translate, but because none of the words in your native tongue feel right. But it eventually starts to happen a lot and you realize that there's so much that you weren't able to easily conceptualize because you were constrained by the limits of your native tongue.
  - Swizec 11y ago
    There is an established theory that language shapes your thoughts. If you only know one language, then you are confined to a single way of thinking. Another interesting phenomena is that you are more logical in a 2nd or 3rd language than you are in your mother tongue, where you are more emotional. This can be a useful superpower.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      I have a personal hobby of trying to find one of these thoughts that only can be thought of in one language and not another and I have yet to find one. All modern languages seem to be able to be used to express all human thoughts that can be expressed with any language.
      - Swizec 11y ago
        In english it is very common to say that you are a "mommy" or "daddy" of your pet. It sounds normal and acceptable. In Slovenian it sounds like you're a mental patient who thinks they gave birth to a dog. So most people switch to English to express said sentiment since we imported it from US television. Even though we have a direct translation for the word "mommy", all the submeanings do not directly translate. So we sometimes use them as separate different words.
        danieltillett 11y ago
        I have to say even in English you sound like you are unhinged if you say you are the mommy or daddy of a pet. The concept here that is trying to be expressed is that you are the loving owner of the pet - loving like a parent is of a child. I am sure that this concept exists in Slovenian even if expressed using different words.
        panglott 11y ago
        People have begun to say this in the US, and it drives me nuts as a native speaker of English. I do not find it normal or acceptable. If you want kids, have kids or adopt them. Don't take an animal and twist it into filling your own emotional needs by treating it like a human infant.
mirimir 11y ago
In Firefox, the Perapera plugin is far easier.

carlob 11y ago

I think that with global media we're much closer to having a generation where everybody at least understands English, than getting to the point where automatic translation is pleasant enough that you could read Anna Karenina translated by a machine and find it enjoyable. But then again robots can make cars, yet some people still buy hand-made supercars. So probably translators will have to stick around to translate art.

vorg 11y ago
When a Chinese, Japanese, and Korean talk to each other in English, they often can't understand an American who joins in the conversation. Perhaps Basic English, without nativisms like "stick around".
- mwcampbell 11y ago
  Maybe we native speakers should consider it an obligation to learn to speak and write in basic English without idioms, phrasal verbs, and other gratuitous features that make the language more difficult for non-native speakers.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Like "consider it"
  - panglott 11y ago
    Sorry, native speakers with language privilege will never give up on the idea that they speak "real" English, and the the "bad" English non-native speakers speak among themselves is anything other than a bastard pidgin. What international business English would need is dictionaries, grammars, lesson courses, and people willing to have their kids speak it INSTEAD OF British- or American-standard English.

DrScump 11y ago

[1] should be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Babel_fish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_T... (general note: please use desktop rather than mobile-specific URLs wherever possible. In this case, the mobile fragment identifier gets mishandled on desktop browsers, going to the "Shaltanacs" section instead. The desktop URL with fragment identifier works on mobile and desktop alike.)

danieltillett 11y ago
Interesting bug there for wiki. I just checked and the link is broken on mobile for the desktop version too.

panglott 11y ago

We will not have a technological Babel fish until we have portable (power-efficient) computers that are both 1. roughly as or more intelligent as a human and 2. understands the world in the same way as a human, including both semantics and pragmatics of such things as humor. This is not anything realistic in anything like the near term. Most of the automated translation software I've used can't even handle something like deixis through a text between two such well-studied and similar languages as English and Spanish. You're talking about a device that could translate between Scots, Tamil, and Huasteca Nahuatl. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU