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> Why do I have to give eating salmon any thought?
The same reason you would give thought to killing a Golden Retriever for food. Due to indoctrinated beliefs,
> Why do I have to give eating salmon any thought?
The same reason you would give thought to killing a Golden Retriever for food. Due to indoctrinated beliefs, people think it's alright to kill certain animals for food, but not others, and when asked why, the logical inconsistencies become very apparent. See http://www.carnism.org/ http://www.carnism.org/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4
> Am I supposed to justify stomping on a cockroach too? Where does this moralizing end?
Any killing is self-defense in always justified. However, if there's an opportunity to practice non-violence, why not take it?
Ok so your position boils down to 'why not?'
My answer is because I don't feel like it on that day. Sometimes I feel like practicing non-violence, other days I feel like practicing it and letting off some steam.
There is no inherent moral virtue in not picking up a stick when walking through a forest and slashing tall grass as you walk around.
Now if tall grass can express discontent similar to human discontent and you happily ignore it, then the issue is that you're likely to inflict human violence with no second thought.
THAT societies don't like. But don't get it twisted with empty moralizing - we want people to feel bad about violence to prevent violence to other humans within our tribe, that's it.
You've explained the inherent problem I believe to be facing humanity today - apathy and lack of empathy. We can't accept violence if we want to live in a free and peaceful society. All oppression has to eventually fall by the wayside and taking the opportunity to not torture many sentient animals is a good way to help.
> you can recognize that fantasizing about a world that's impossible given human nature is simply a waste of time.
I'm a vegan - I'm not fantasizing, I'm actually living in accordance with my beliefs.
I see where you're coming from - it's an idealistic point of view.
We have violence, violence is bad, if we want peace, we need to get rid of it.
Makes sense.
Is that realistic on any level? No.
So either you can stick to idealistic notions and claim that the world is messed up because people are not like you, or you can recognize that fantasizing about a world that's impossible given human nature is simply a waste of time.
Fantasizing about a better world is a good coping strategy that I use myself. I just don't believe it to be anything but a coping strategy. At the end of the day, I need a strategy to change the real world I'm living in, to my liking.
Telling people 'why not be more like me?' is not a very good strategy :) I dare say you actually lack the nuanced understanding of the world to actually make it the way you want it.
Let's put 100 people of your choosing, the ones with least apathy and most empathy on the planet, on an island. How well are you going to do?
What if they're a bunch of non-apathetic, empathetic idiots? They light themselves on fire trying to make a campfire, they chop off their own fingers cutting up salad, but they are so empathetic towards each other.
A few days later, you're all dead.
The inherent problem is people are dumb - your current beliefs on what's wrong with people falls in the naive category. THAT is the problem - there's no lack of empathy, there's lack of intelligence. Lack of empathy is mostly short sightedness - most people don't think of anything but themselves and their immediate family because they're dumb, not because they are apathetic, they don't have the capacity for much is all.
To play devil's advocate:
I see from another comment that you are Vegan, so how did you make the distinction of what living things are acceptable to eat, and which are not? Plants are just as alive as mammals, fish or insects; so if it isn't 'life' that you are preserving, what exactly is it? some idea of consciousness? intelligence? How does something like Honey fit into your view of this issue?
Further, how do you justify your greater reliance than meat eaters on migrant underpaid labor? Is human suffering for your nutrition preferable to animal suffering?
Isnt this just a game of semantic false moral superiority until there is a nutrition source that is completely death and suffering free?
The definition of veganism is, a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
It's not about pursuing some ideal in which no one gets hurt. It's also ludicrous to argue that "killing" plants is in any way comparable to killing actual animals. Check out this site, it very accurately and in a straightforward manner discredits all of the arguments you've made against veganism in this thread so far - http://adaptt.org/veganism.html# http://adaptt.org/veganism.html#
> Plants are just as alive as mammals, fish or insects
Two things: plants aren't sentient and animals also eat plants - many, many times more plants than vegans do. So if you truly regard plant and animal life to be the same, it would behoove you to immediately stop eating animals! It's very obvious how this argument falls flat on its face when brought to the light of critical thinking.
> how do you justify your greater reliance than meat eaters on migrant underpaid labor?
This is just conjecture, but I'll try and answer anyway. You can be vegan and care about how workers are treated. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Personally, I grow most of my food myself, but obviously this isn't practical for most people. Why not turn this question around and ask, how are slaughterhouse workers treated and what their experience must be like?
> Isnt this just a game of semantic false moral superiority until there is a nutrition source that is completely death and suffering free?
Pretty ironic to hear this from someone who beliefs him or herself to be superior to animals, and justifies their destruction. It's not a game of semantics - in fact, it's not a game at all. Animal agriculture is the leading cause of climate change. You can be coy all you want, but you are actively contributing to the problem by consuming animal products.
> Two things: plants aren't sentient
I don't think there is any coherent and useful definition of sentience for which no plants are sentient but all animals are sentient.
There is a very clear and obvious distinction between the plant and animal kingdoms. Any attempts to qualify both as the same when it comes to their destruction is just a coy way to rationalize unethical behavior. Like I said, even if it were true that plants feel pain the same as animals, one would still be compelled to go vegan, since animals "kill" more plants than people do by eating them directly.
> There is a very clear and obvious distinction between the plant and animal kingdoms.
Sure, but whether the things which make up that distinction have particular ethical significance is a different question. And I have yet to see any definition of sentience for which both of the following are true:
(1) It does, in fact, apply to all animals and no plants, and
(2) Most people would agree that it has ethical significance.
In fact, I haven't seen any definition of sentience for which even (1) alone is true.
> Like I said, even if it were true that plants feel pain the same as animals, one would still be compelled to go vegan, since animals "kill" more plants than people do by eating them directly.
That seems to a apply a utilitarian standard of ethics, not the categorical one which is usually in arguing that veganism is an ethical compulsion (under the categorical ethics usually applied to argue for veganism, recognizing plants as sentient would make eating either inexcusable, even if it were a survival necessity.)
Once you accept that its a utilitarian matter, determining that something is ethically demanded requires agreeing to a particular ethical calculus -- a method of aggregating utilities and disutilities experienced by different participants. And there's an infinite number of possible functions that can be used, and they can support any possible conclusion.
This is exactly what i was getting at, but vastly more well worded
> under the categorical ethics usually applied to argue for veganism, recognizing plants as sentient would make eating either inexcusable
Veganism is the ethical position that animals should not be exploited for food, clothing and other purposes. If you want to start a Compassion for Carrots organization, be my guest, but please don't form conjecture on others' behalf. You've also not yet provided evidence for plants' sentience, so you haven't actually given reason for considering the abuse of animals to be ethical or acceptable.
>plants aren't sentient
Is a venus fly trap sentient?
Is a cricket sentient?
Is a starfish sentient?
Is a worm sentient?
How about trees that communicate with other trees nearby?[1][2]
>and animals also eat plants
Plants also eat animals[3] animals also eat other animals, so i dont understand how this is an argument.
>This is just conjecture
61% of all farmworkers have incomes below pverty level, average life expectancy subtanstially lower than rest of population[4]
cites migrants earning 7500$ per year, 52% having no legal status in US[5]
>Why not turn this question around and ask, how are slaughterhouse workers treated and what their experience must be like?
you could certainly make that argument, but i dont think its likely to mirror agricultural migrant labor
>Pretty ironic to hear this from someone who beliefs him or herself to be superior to animals, and justifies their destruction.
Thats quite a label to apply to someone you've never met and whose never said anything like that.
You seem to believe you are superior to plants though...
[1]https://karban.wordpress.com/research/ https://karban.wordpress.com/research/
[2]http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141111-plants-have-a-hidden-internet http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141111-plants-have-a-hidden...
[3]http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publications/volunteer/young_naturalists/insectivores/insectivores.pdf http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publications/volunteer/young_na...
[4]http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/migrants.html http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/migrants.html
[5]http://articles.extension.org/pages/9960/migrant-farm-workers:-our-nations-invisible-population http://articles.extension.org/pages/9960/migrant-farm-worker...
You're making straw man arguments. Humans don't breed, enslave and kill billions of starfish, crickets and worms. Do you see what you're doing? Rather than acknowledge we're harming many animals which are no doubt sentient, you're appealing to fringes to bolster an illogical argument. I'm not surprised - many carnists take refuge in the plant-killing argument as a last resort. It's fascinating what lows the human mind will reach to justify cruelty. And so what if animals kill other animals? Do you really think that's a reason to act the same? Why pick this behavior, and not the one in which animals commit infanticide or sniff each other's rear ends?
> You seem to believe you are superior to plants though
The only one I'm superior to is myself when I still paid for the abuse of animals.
>Humans don't breed, enslave and kill billions of starfish, crickets and worms.
But we do breed, enslave and kill trillions of carrots, apples, potatoes, tomatoes, etc
But again, you have made it clear you feel that some life is not as valuable, namely plant life - so it is morally acceptable from your view to kill plants but not animals because of the difference in the value of life.
Thats good for you but i am interested in hearing arguments from someone who doesn't just ignore uncomfortable facts.
The plant-killing argument is extremely trite and appealing to it to justify the animal holocaust just shows you are desperate for any reason to keep engaging in animal abuse. Please - do have the humility to read again and see just how ridiculous your arguments have been. Claiming vegetables are enslaved and killed is just silly and you know it. What's more, I've repeatedly told you more plants are killed for livestock feed, but somehow you choose not to address this apparent contradiction.
you actually completely fabricated what you think my views are, i'm justifying nothing and my position is still unstated.
I'm simply exploring a philosophical question, while you are obviously defending your lifestyle choices.
That philosophical question being how can one type of life be valued more than another, or how do you justify a moral position of life is precious while simultaneously ending life daily for nourishment. this is a quandary literally every human on the planet faces, no one is attacking veganism, or you , or your choices.
How you are missing that this is my argument, and continually projecting me as some one dimensional 'vegans are even worse than meat eaters' is quite confounding to me.