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I would be surprised to see any web standard that makes iOS Safari better for "appy web apps" (web apps that are more like native apps rather than documents and

I would be surprised to see any web standard that makes iOS Safari better for "appy web apps" (web apps that are more like native apps rather than documents and forms) implemented, as that eventually just makes Safari an alternative AppStore without reviews. Of course I would love it because as a developer this is the dream but I am very skeptical that Apple will do it.

masklinn 11y ago
> I would be surprised to see any web standard that makes iOS Safari better for "appy web apps" (web apps that are more like native apps rather than documents and forms) implemented, as that eventually just makes Safari an alternative AppStore without reviews. Which is pretty much what Apple has been pushing since before there was an appstore? To this day it takes just 2 taps (share > add to home screen) to add a webapp to the phone as a "standard application" (with a homescreen icon and everything) There's plenty of serious crap[0] in the apple web ecosystem, but it doesn't really seem related to "webapps as appstore replacement"[1][2][3]. [0] http://www.raymondcamden.com/2014/09/25/IndexedDB-on-iOS-8-Broken-Bad/ http://www.raymondcamden.com/2014/09/25/IndexedDB-on-iOS-8-B... [1] http://caniuse.com/#search=websql http://caniuse.com/#search=websql [2] http://caniuse.com/#search=audio http://caniuse.com/#search=audio [3] http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl
- esailija 11y ago
  But that "app" doesn't have any real capabilities so what's the point other than bookmarking websites? There's no background sync, proper offline, no notifications, no (usable) indexeddb, no rtc, no file system, no media sinks, no media sessions ... these are from the top of my head. You have a point that long time ago Apple was the one pushing the browser as application platform but today is not the same as the long gone past. Edit: The can-i-use about "web audio" is misleading about Safari. The web audio is prefixed there with "webkit" is not the same as the standard API. Edit2: Noticed it's not about "web audio" at all but html5 audio. That's an API from 2010 that doesn't really do anything for apps such as games or audio editors. The newer Web Audio API is used for this and that's what I am referring to.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >There's no background sync, proper offline, no notifications, no (usable) indexeddb, no rtc, no file system, no media sinks, no media sessions ... these are from the top of my head. So, more or less just like with the desktop web. What you describe is not web apps, it's some proprietary hybrid mix allowed inside Safari with hooks to the whole OS.
    - esailija 11y ago
      No, those are web standards implemented by other browsers like Chrome, Firefox and Edge.
      - masklinn 11y ago
        That's more than a little misleading: * background sync is not a web standard, it's experimental chrome tech (though it's been submitted to the WICG) * I can only assume "proper offline" refers to service workers which is a WD with partial support (in the browsers in which it's implemented, which exclude Edge and webkit), webkit has it listed as "under consideration" and the last spec revision landed around the time of the last major safari update (mid-2015) * notifications is fair, note that desktop Safari supports and that there's almost no mobile support at this point (also not supported yet in Edge) * indexeddb is fair wrt current standards, but does not support "apple hates webapps" considering safari supports websql * rtc is fair, and in development * filesystem is proprietary chrome tech, dropped from standard track * media sinks is fair, a WD with incomplete support on chrome * media session is in development everywhere except edge All in all, as far as conspiracy theories your comments mostly support you being a chrome shill.
        esailija 11y ago
        There are probably hundreds of new APIs that have come after 2012 or whatever the year was when the ball was dropped. Those were just "from the top of my head" not something to be nit picked. I didn't also literally mean that they are currently implemented by all of those browsers today. My point is that I expect them to be implemented browsers other than Safari sooner or later as they have strongly signaled. Safari has not signaled anything about them. Or if they have, provide evidence of it and I will apologize. > filesystem is proprietary chrome tech, dropped from standard track That's not the file system API I am even referring to. I am referring to https://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/ https://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/ which is edited by Mozilla. > rtc is fair, and in development For iOS Safari? WebKit having WebRTC is completely different from iOS safari having it.
coldtea 11y ago
>I would be surprised to see any web standard that makes iOS Safari better for "appy web apps" (web apps that are more like native apps rather than documents and forms) implemented, as that eventually just makes Safari an alternative AppStore without reviews. This conspiracy thinking has been played again and again. Few users cares for logging into some website from mobile Safari just to get a subpar experience over a native app (or a hybrid app), and that's not because Safari presents any kind of worse web experience than the desktop. In fact Safari has often been the best mobile browser, but it still doesn't compete with the AppStore that much, as the most important things -- more than half a billion of credit cards on store, easy monetization, in-app purchases and full access to native APIs are missing from the web-app story.
- esailija 11y ago
  > In fact Safari has often been the best mobile browser There are no other browsers on iOS. When you are using Chrome it is using UIWebView (in other words, it is forced to be a crippled Safari due to anti-competitive policy). Although recent Chrome will be using WKWebView which means at least it's same as Safari. The UI around the browser is not the browser. > Few users cares for logging into some website from mobile Safari just to get a subpar experience over a native app (or a hybrid app), Few users could tell any difference between native app and web app running in a browser that has modern appy capabilities, provided there is same quality of implementation. The only thing that can make the experience subpar is precisely the lack of capabilities.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >In fact Safari has often been the best mobile browser I know. I meant across platforms. It's obviously the best on in iOS. >Few users could tell any difference between native app and web app running in a browser that has modern appy capabilities, provided there is same quality of implementation. The only thing that can make the experience subpar is precisely the lack of capabilities. For one, a web app adds the extra burden of a JS VM and DOM over native code. This rules out all kinds of graphic and CPU intensive apps. Actually, for any app that's not just a glorified content screen / database view, there's not even a comparison between a web and a native implementation. Even for basically text-based content consumptions apps, like Flipboard, they had to jump through all kinds of hoops to get smooth 60 fps scrolling within a web view. And of course there's the battery life, that's a real killer with web apps. A future based on web apps for mobile is a regression over even 2005's state of the art in the desktop. And it's an experience similar to cross-platform apps -- that is, a "lowest common denominator" across mobile platforms.

masklinn 11y ago

> I would be surprised to see any web standard that makes iOS Safari better for "appy web apps" (web apps that are more like native apps rather than documents and forms) implemented, as that eventually just makes Safari an alternative AppStore without reviews. Which is pretty much what Apple has been pushing since before there was an appstore? To this day it takes just 2 taps (share > add to home screen) to add a webapp to the phone as a "standard application" (with a homescreen icon and everything) There's plenty of serious crap[0] in the apple web ecosystem, but it doesn't really seem related to "webapps as appstore replacement"[1][2][3]. [0] http://www.raymondcamden.com/2014/09/25/IndexedDB-on-iOS-8-Broken-Bad/ http://www.raymondcamden.com/2014/09/25/IndexedDB-on-iOS-8-B... [1] http://caniuse.com/#search=websql http://caniuse.com/#search=websql [2] http://caniuse.com/#search=audio http://caniuse.com/#search=audio [3] http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl

esailija 11y ago
But that "app" doesn't have any real capabilities so what's the point other than bookmarking websites? There's no background sync, proper offline, no notifications, no (usable) indexeddb, no rtc, no file system, no media sinks, no media sessions ... these are from the top of my head. You have a point that long time ago Apple was the one pushing the browser as application platform but today is not the same as the long gone past. Edit: The can-i-use about "web audio" is misleading about Safari. The web audio is prefixed there with "webkit" is not the same as the standard API. Edit2: Noticed it's not about "web audio" at all but html5 audio. That's an API from 2010 that doesn't really do anything for apps such as games or audio editors. The newer Web Audio API is used for this and that's what I am referring to.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >There's no background sync, proper offline, no notifications, no (usable) indexeddb, no rtc, no file system, no media sinks, no media sessions ... these are from the top of my head. So, more or less just like with the desktop web. What you describe is not web apps, it's some proprietary hybrid mix allowed inside Safari with hooks to the whole OS.
  - esailija 11y ago
    No, those are web standards implemented by other browsers like Chrome, Firefox and Edge.
    - masklinn 11y ago
      That's more than a little misleading: * background sync is not a web standard, it's experimental chrome tech (though it's been submitted to the WICG) * I can only assume "proper offline" refers to service workers which is a WD with partial support (in the browsers in which it's implemented, which exclude Edge and webkit), webkit has it listed as "under consideration" and the last spec revision landed around the time of the last major safari update (mid-2015) * notifications is fair, note that desktop Safari supports and that there's almost no mobile support at this point (also not supported yet in Edge) * indexeddb is fair wrt current standards, but does not support "apple hates webapps" considering safari supports websql * rtc is fair, and in development * filesystem is proprietary chrome tech, dropped from standard track * media sinks is fair, a WD with incomplete support on chrome * media session is in development everywhere except edge All in all, as far as conspiracy theories your comments mostly support you being a chrome shill.
      - esailija 11y ago
        There are probably hundreds of new APIs that have come after 2012 or whatever the year was when the ball was dropped. Those were just "from the top of my head" not something to be nit picked. I didn't also literally mean that they are currently implemented by all of those browsers today. My point is that I expect them to be implemented browsers other than Safari sooner or later as they have strongly signaled. Safari has not signaled anything about them. Or if they have, provide evidence of it and I will apologize. > filesystem is proprietary chrome tech, dropped from standard track That's not the file system API I am even referring to. I am referring to https://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/ https://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/ which is edited by Mozilla. > rtc is fair, and in development For iOS Safari? WebKit having WebRTC is completely different from iOS safari having it.

coldtea 11y ago

>I would be surprised to see any web standard that makes iOS Safari better for "appy web apps" (web apps that are more like native apps rather than documents and forms) implemented, as that eventually just makes Safari an alternative AppStore without reviews. This conspiracy thinking has been played again and again. Few users cares for logging into some website from mobile Safari just to get a subpar experience over a native app (or a hybrid app), and that's not because Safari presents any kind of worse web experience than the desktop. In fact Safari has often been the best mobile browser, but it still doesn't compete with the AppStore that much, as the most important things -- more than half a billion of credit cards on store, easy monetization, in-app purchases and full access to native APIs are missing from the web-app story.

esailija 11y ago
> In fact Safari has often been the best mobile browser There are no other browsers on iOS. When you are using Chrome it is using UIWebView (in other words, it is forced to be a crippled Safari due to anti-competitive policy). Although recent Chrome will be using WKWebView which means at least it's same as Safari. The UI around the browser is not the browser. > Few users cares for logging into some website from mobile Safari just to get a subpar experience over a native app (or a hybrid app), Few users could tell any difference between native app and web app running in a browser that has modern appy capabilities, provided there is same quality of implementation. The only thing that can make the experience subpar is precisely the lack of capabilities.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >In fact Safari has often been the best mobile browser I know. I meant across platforms. It's obviously the best on in iOS. >Few users could tell any difference between native app and web app running in a browser that has modern appy capabilities, provided there is same quality of implementation. The only thing that can make the experience subpar is precisely the lack of capabilities. For one, a web app adds the extra burden of a JS VM and DOM over native code. This rules out all kinds of graphic and CPU intensive apps. Actually, for any app that's not just a glorified content screen / database view, there's not even a comparison between a web and a native implementation. Even for basically text-based content consumptions apps, like Flipboard, they had to jump through all kinds of hoops to get smooth 60 fps scrolling within a web view. And of course there's the battery life, that's a real killer with web apps. A future based on web apps for mobile is a regression over even 2005's state of the art in the desktop. And it's an experience similar to cross-platform apps -- that is, a "lowest common denominator" across mobile platforms.