4 ms·

The poster recommended listening to "their media" for a balanced view on Saudi Arabia, which is nonsense in a country without a free press. And also suggested t

The poster recommended listening to "their media" for a balanced view on Saudi Arabia, which is nonsense in a country without a free press. And also suggested that the alternative to Saudi Arabia was Iran. Looked like a typical paid commenter.

tome 11y ago
> suggested that the alternative to Saudi Arabia was Iran So what is the alternative regional hegemon? Egypt? Turkey?
- justincormack 11y ago
  Not having one?
ptaipale 11y ago
I think there is a common fallacy that people who you disagree with need to be paid by someone, otherwise they wouldn't be as they are. I disagree with the poster but I'll grant that he may completely believe what he says and doesn't need to be paid in any way. The same phenomenon works for pro-Russia trolls, for instance. I don't think they are "paid", particularly paid with money.
- jdimov9 11y ago
  I am very much pro-Russia. You got a problem with that?
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    No, I have a problem with pro-Russia (pro-Putin) trolls. Still, I don't think they are "paid".
    - ceejayoz 11y ago
      Some appear to be. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the... http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias...
      - ptaipale 11y ago
        Quite, but I think that most who I meet are not. Likewise, most of those who spread various 9/11 conspiracy theories are not paid by anyone, they are quite sincere.
- justincormack 11y ago
  Sure they may genuinely believe what they have been told, but repressive regimes hiring commenters is pretty common now, perhaps not on hacker news. I do not believe people have to be paid to disagree with me, that would be self centred delusion.
danmaz74 11y ago
"their media" aren't going to give a balanced view of the country, but they're going to give you an idea of the mainstream attitudes there.
- VLM 11y ago
  A very good analogy would be one way to gain at least a little insight into the relationship between the USA govt and Evangelical Christians would be to watch Fox News. Usually cross cultural analogies are risky at best, but this one is surprisingly accurate. There exist religious groups who's relatives, followers, and sympathizers hold at least some of the positions in the government, although the religious groups in question are not technically officially a part of the government. There is an influence.
baliansa 11y ago
Yes, I did recommend listening to "their" media. However I did not mean listen to the news, Watch the music, culture, and other forms of media, to get a sense of the "extremism exporter" being portrayed in the article, just take a look at this network ( http://telfaz11.com/en/ http://telfaz11.com/en/ ). I really do not understand the reasons behind your anger, is it because of 9/11? As I said before, the Saudis have suffered way more because of Al-Qaeda, and keep in mind that Al-Qaeda is the child of cold war strategies. And no, I am not a paid commenter, I am a Saudi citizen who lives in Riyadh and is deeply insulted by all these reductions that are clearly made without any deep thoughts on the middle east.
- justincormack 11y ago
  Sorry to suggest you are a paid commenter. I would just like you to be be able to live in a civilised country. To quote Amnesty: The government severely restricted freedoms of expression, association and assembly, and cracked down on dissent, arresting and imprisoning critics, including human rights defenders. Many received unfair trials before courts that failed to respect due process, including a special anti-terrorism court that handed down death sentences. New legislation effectively equated criticism of the government and other peaceful activities with terrorism. The authorities clamped down on online activism and intimidated activists and family members who reported human rights violations. Discrimination against the Shi’a minority remained entrenched; some Shi’a activists were sentenced to death and scores received lengthy prison terms. Torture of detainees was reportedly common; courts convicted defendants on the basis of torture-tainted “confessions” and sentenced others to flogging. Women faced discrimination in law and practice, and were inadequately protected against sexual and other violence despite a new law criminalizing domestic violence. The authorities detained and summarily expelled thousands of foreign migrants, returning some to countries where they were at risk of serious human rights abuses. The authorities made extensive use of the death penalty and carried out dozens of public executions. https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...
dang 11y ago
> Looked like a typical paid commenter. Insinuations of astroturfing and shillage without evidence are not allowed on HN. An opposing opinion doesn't count as evidence. We're strict about this because there's nothing more destructive of civility online than people yelling "shill" at each other. You didn't do that, but that's where the vector points. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11144024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11144024 and marked it off-topic.

tome 11y ago

> suggested that the alternative to Saudi Arabia was Iran So what is the alternative regional hegemon? Egypt? Turkey?

justincormack 11y ago
Not having one?

ptaipale 11y ago

I think there is a common fallacy that people who you disagree with need to be paid by someone, otherwise they wouldn't be as they are. I disagree with the poster but I'll grant that he may completely believe what he says and doesn't need to be paid in any way. The same phenomenon works for pro-Russia trolls, for instance. I don't think they are "paid", particularly paid with money.

jdimov9 11y ago
I am very much pro-Russia. You got a problem with that?
- ptaipale 11y ago
  No, I have a problem with pro-Russia (pro-Putin) trolls. Still, I don't think they are "paid".
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    Some appear to be. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the... http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias...
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      Quite, but I think that most who I meet are not. Likewise, most of those who spread various 9/11 conspiracy theories are not paid by anyone, they are quite sincere.
justincormack 11y ago
Sure they may genuinely believe what they have been told, but repressive regimes hiring commenters is pretty common now, perhaps not on hacker news. I do not believe people have to be paid to disagree with me, that would be self centred delusion.

danmaz74 11y ago

"their media" aren't going to give a balanced view of the country, but they're going to give you an idea of the mainstream attitudes there.

VLM 11y ago
A very good analogy would be one way to gain at least a little insight into the relationship between the USA govt and Evangelical Christians would be to watch Fox News. Usually cross cultural analogies are risky at best, but this one is surprisingly accurate. There exist religious groups who's relatives, followers, and sympathizers hold at least some of the positions in the government, although the religious groups in question are not technically officially a part of the government. There is an influence.

baliansa 11y ago

Yes, I did recommend listening to "their" media. However I did not mean listen to the news, Watch the music, culture, and other forms of media, to get a sense of the "extremism exporter" being portrayed in the article, just take a look at this network ( http://telfaz11.com/en/ http://telfaz11.com/en/ ). I really do not understand the reasons behind your anger, is it because of 9/11? As I said before, the Saudis have suffered way more because of Al-Qaeda, and keep in mind that Al-Qaeda is the child of cold war strategies. And no, I am not a paid commenter, I am a Saudi citizen who lives in Riyadh and is deeply insulted by all these reductions that are clearly made without any deep thoughts on the middle east.

justincormack 11y ago
Sorry to suggest you are a paid commenter. I would just like you to be be able to live in a civilised country. To quote Amnesty: The government severely restricted freedoms of expression, association and assembly, and cracked down on dissent, arresting and imprisoning critics, including human rights defenders. Many received unfair trials before courts that failed to respect due process, including a special anti-terrorism court that handed down death sentences. New legislation effectively equated criticism of the government and other peaceful activities with terrorism. The authorities clamped down on online activism and intimidated activists and family members who reported human rights violations. Discrimination against the Shi’a minority remained entrenched; some Shi’a activists were sentenced to death and scores received lengthy prison terms. Torture of detainees was reportedly common; courts convicted defendants on the basis of torture-tainted “confessions” and sentenced others to flogging. Women faced discrimination in law and practice, and were inadequately protected against sexual and other violence despite a new law criminalizing domestic violence. The authorities detained and summarily expelled thousands of foreign migrants, returning some to countries where they were at risk of serious human rights abuses. The authorities made extensive use of the death penalty and carried out dozens of public executions. https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...

dang 11y ago

> Looked like a typical paid commenter. Insinuations of astroturfing and shillage without evidence are not allowed on HN. An opposing opinion doesn't count as evidence. We're strict about this because there's nothing more destructive of civility online than people yelling "shill" at each other. You didn't do that, but that's where the vector points. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11144024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11144024 and marked it off-topic.