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The problem is with the laws. Poorly written, lazy or "bought-for" laws are being used exactly as they are worded. If you want better laws, you need to write be

The problem is with the laws. Poorly written, lazy or "bought-for" laws are being used exactly as they are worded. If you want better laws, you need to write better laws - not just hope that people will follow what each law intended. For the people that claim that the tax loopholes are something that the companies lobby for - again - it's interesting that people are upset with the companies who lobby for this, rather than the fact that politicians are receiving the actual money. The problem is not with the companies - it's with the politicians that allow money to influence themselves. It's laughable to me that politicians denounce "money in politics" with one hand and are busy recruiting, fundraising and accepting it on the other.

mattmanser 11y ago
The problem is definitely the companies. They're the ones exploiting the system. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but the problem is definitely the companies. If they just paid their fair share with a little bit of mild tax dodging no-one would give a fuck. But they're taking the fucking piss at the moment, generating billions in revenue and then not paying for any of the infrastructure which is supporting their business.
- nezumi 11y ago
  You have to account for competition. Suppose there are two companies with the same business model, operating in the same countries etc. One files taxes "fairly" and one minimizes its tax burden as far as the law will allow. Which one do you think is going to be in business for longer? Which one would you buy shares in? You can get as angry as you like at the companies, or the legislators, but in the end it's the system you need to be scrutinizing.
  - mattmanser 11y ago
    This is clearly nonsense, what serious competition does Google have in Europe? Or Apple? Apple are making billions in profits, they have no competitive need for lower prices! Also this is an advantage only massive multinationals have, so again, complete nonsense as they're already past that stage.
- icebraining 11y ago
  But what is their fair share? The governments of Ireland, the Netherlands and Bermuda say they are paying their fair share. Other countries obviously disagree.
- nunyabuizness 11y ago
  >The problem is definitely the companies. They're the ones exploiting the system. Who implements the system? The politicians that you and I elect and the corporations buy off, right? So who's fault is it really, the people who exploit the system, the people in charge of that system, or the people who put faith in the system giving it power?
  - mattmanser 11y ago
    It's not that they're applying for an exemption or anything, they're doing crazy contortions to get this to work. It's an unintended consequence of the complexity of tax law that take a long time to fix. If you could get away with murder because of a loophole, would you? Say it would make a company more profitable, killing their rivals. Do they suddenly have a legal obligation to as a company to increase their profits? Or do you behave ethically and within the spirit of the law, regardless of the law loophole? So why is it ok to dodge the fiscal responsibility to contribute to the societies you are operating in?
oh_sigh 11y ago
> Poorly written, lazy or "bought-for" laws are being used exactly as they are worded Not really. The IRS for one has open to them a very wide avenue of interpretation for many tax laws.
- crusso 11y ago
  You're missing the point. The wide latitude that the IRS has in its interpretation of tax law is part of the design that was bought.
dredmorbius 11y ago
Wealth begets power begets law begets wealth. The deductions (or avoidance) is "legal" because it follows the letter of laws ... bought and paid for by companies which see 100:1, 1,000:1, or 1,000,000:1 returns on their lobbying "expenses" securing just this. Until and unless money's influence is removed from politics, this will be the case.
- fleitz 11y ago
  You can't remove money from politics, the only reason politics exists is because government gets to decide who gets what money. Not even the staunchest libertarian thinks the government would work with no revenue, or that politicians shouldn't be allowed to manage the money of the state.
  - aidos 11y ago
    The parent wasn't talking about the government allocating money, they were talking about government members being given money in exchange for influence. Sure, in both cases it's money, but you can remove one and still have the other.
  - dredmorbius 11y ago
    I strongly suspect your first premise (that money cannot be removed from politics) is correct, though I disagree with your interpretation/rationale. The point that financial wealth and political power are simply two (of several) dimensions of power means, though, that the influence of money on politics cannot be ignored.
afarrell 11y ago
The problem is not with the companies, the politicians, the laws, or the lobbyists separately. The problem is with the system composed of all of these parts.
- joelrunyon 11y ago
  * Companies work for their shareholders. * Lobbyists work for their companies. * Politicians work for...us. They're also the one group that if they STOPPED their involvement in the "system" would cause lobbying to be pointless. Instead they fester an "us vs. them" attitude and hope If I hired you to do a job and you took on a freelance job doing favors for your dinner buddy on work time and started ignoring your day job - you'd get fired so fast it's not even funny. Unfortunately, we don't treat congress members like that.
  - afarrell 11y ago
    If I hired you to write code and never looked at a single line you wrote[1], but instead held performance reviews based on how well your personal marketing department tweeted... 1: quick, tell me the name of your representative, the name of the last bill they co-sponsored, and a few of the legal concepts that bill dealt with.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      Yup, that's a pretty good point. Politicians don't work for us, they work for themselves. Our input is only to vote some of them in, and in aggregate, we vote based on the media impression they themselves orchestrate.
rayiner 11y ago
I agree it's pointless to blame companies. But it's also intellectually lazy to blame the tax code. What "paid for" "loopholes" are you talking about? Because tech company tax avoidance is based on taking advantage of straightforward principles of tax law. The double Irish, for example, takes advantage of the difference between the US view of corporate residency (country of incorporation) and the Irish view (country of control), along with the deductibility of licensing expenses. These aren't obscure loopholes written into tax codes by paid-for legislators. You can't have a tax code that taxes profits that doesn't allow deducting expenses, and there is no obviously right answer as to how you should define corporate residency for a transnational corporation.
- joelrunyon 11y ago
  I'm not talking about any. I was trying to pre-empt the counter that I hear brought up a lot here that "tax breaks are paid for by lobbyists"
- occamrazor 11y ago
  The relative merits of US GAAP vs Irish GAAP are comparatively irrelevant. Choose one and stick to it
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    If I operate in both countries, what's the process for me to tell the "other" country to "stick it, I'm using the other country's accounting and tax policies"?
Aoyagi 11y ago
Well, you said it yourself. The companies do lobby for loopholes, knowing they will be better off than other. As a results, the companies in question have at least the same share of blame as the politicians.
- crusso 11y ago
  Blaming lobbyists for lobbying is like blaming ants for finding piles of sugar that are carelessly left around. The government is supposed to consist of our better angels that act in a more ethical manner to a higher standard than the cogs just functioning in the system that the government creates. If the government doesn't consist of these better angels, why do we give it such vast and sweeping powers to invade and control our lives?
  - Aoyagi 11y ago
    That's like saying "don't blame the murderer, blame police for not saving you while you were being continuously stabbed for two hours"...
    - icebraining 11y ago
      If the police actively helped the murderers, I'd certainly blame them.
    - crusso 11y ago
      That's a poor analogy since murder is illegal. What Google is doing is within the law and a part of the framework created by the government.
      - Aoyagi 11y ago
        Tax dodging is also against the spirit of the law, which is a direct result of companies lobbying for loopholes they can use. Said companies are the initiators, not the corrupt/dumb politicians (who are, of course, also to blame).

mattmanser 11y ago

The problem is definitely the companies. They're the ones exploiting the system. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but the problem is definitely the companies. If they just paid their fair share with a little bit of mild tax dodging no-one would give a fuck. But they're taking the fucking piss at the moment, generating billions in revenue and then not paying for any of the infrastructure which is supporting their business.

nezumi 11y ago
You have to account for competition. Suppose there are two companies with the same business model, operating in the same countries etc. One files taxes "fairly" and one minimizes its tax burden as far as the law will allow. Which one do you think is going to be in business for longer? Which one would you buy shares in? You can get as angry as you like at the companies, or the legislators, but in the end it's the system you need to be scrutinizing.
- mattmanser 11y ago
  This is clearly nonsense, what serious competition does Google have in Europe? Or Apple? Apple are making billions in profits, they have no competitive need for lower prices! Also this is an advantage only massive multinationals have, so again, complete nonsense as they're already past that stage.
icebraining 11y ago
But what is their fair share? The governments of Ireland, the Netherlands and Bermuda say they are paying their fair share. Other countries obviously disagree.
nunyabuizness 11y ago
>The problem is definitely the companies. They're the ones exploiting the system. Who implements the system? The politicians that you and I elect and the corporations buy off, right? So who's fault is it really, the people who exploit the system, the people in charge of that system, or the people who put faith in the system giving it power?
- mattmanser 11y ago
  It's not that they're applying for an exemption or anything, they're doing crazy contortions to get this to work. It's an unintended consequence of the complexity of tax law that take a long time to fix. If you could get away with murder because of a loophole, would you? Say it would make a company more profitable, killing their rivals. Do they suddenly have a legal obligation to as a company to increase their profits? Or do you behave ethically and within the spirit of the law, regardless of the law loophole? So why is it ok to dodge the fiscal responsibility to contribute to the societies you are operating in?

oh_sigh 11y ago

> Poorly written, lazy or "bought-for" laws are being used exactly as they are worded Not really. The IRS for one has open to them a very wide avenue of interpretation for many tax laws.

crusso 11y ago
You're missing the point. The wide latitude that the IRS has in its interpretation of tax law is part of the design that was bought.

dredmorbius 11y ago

Wealth begets power begets law begets wealth. The deductions (or avoidance) is "legal" because it follows the letter of laws ... bought and paid for by companies which see 100:1, 1,000:1, or 1,000,000:1 returns on their lobbying "expenses" securing just this. Until and unless money's influence is removed from politics, this will be the case.

fleitz 11y ago
You can't remove money from politics, the only reason politics exists is because government gets to decide who gets what money. Not even the staunchest libertarian thinks the government would work with no revenue, or that politicians shouldn't be allowed to manage the money of the state.
- aidos 11y ago
  The parent wasn't talking about the government allocating money, they were talking about government members being given money in exchange for influence. Sure, in both cases it's money, but you can remove one and still have the other.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  I strongly suspect your first premise (that money cannot be removed from politics) is correct, though I disagree with your interpretation/rationale. The point that financial wealth and political power are simply two (of several) dimensions of power means, though, that the influence of money on politics cannot be ignored.

afarrell 11y ago

The problem is not with the companies, the politicians, the laws, or the lobbyists separately. The problem is with the system composed of all of these parts.

joelrunyon 11y ago
* Companies work for their shareholders. * Lobbyists work for their companies. * Politicians work for...us. They're also the one group that if they STOPPED their involvement in the "system" would cause lobbying to be pointless. Instead they fester an "us vs. them" attitude and hope If I hired you to do a job and you took on a freelance job doing favors for your dinner buddy on work time and started ignoring your day job - you'd get fired so fast it's not even funny. Unfortunately, we don't treat congress members like that.
- afarrell 11y ago
  If I hired you to write code and never looked at a single line you wrote[1], but instead held performance reviews based on how well your personal marketing department tweeted... 1: quick, tell me the name of your representative, the name of the last bill they co-sponsored, and a few of the legal concepts that bill dealt with.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Yup, that's a pretty good point. Politicians don't work for us, they work for themselves. Our input is only to vote some of them in, and in aggregate, we vote based on the media impression they themselves orchestrate.

rayiner 11y ago

I agree it's pointless to blame companies. But it's also intellectually lazy to blame the tax code. What "paid for" "loopholes" are you talking about? Because tech company tax avoidance is based on taking advantage of straightforward principles of tax law. The double Irish, for example, takes advantage of the difference between the US view of corporate residency (country of incorporation) and the Irish view (country of control), along with the deductibility of licensing expenses. These aren't obscure loopholes written into tax codes by paid-for legislators. You can't have a tax code that taxes profits that doesn't allow deducting expenses, and there is no obviously right answer as to how you should define corporate residency for a transnational corporation.

joelrunyon 11y ago
I'm not talking about any. I was trying to pre-empt the counter that I hear brought up a lot here that "tax breaks are paid for by lobbyists"
occamrazor 11y ago
The relative merits of US GAAP vs Irish GAAP are comparatively irrelevant. Choose one and stick to it
- sokoloff 11y ago
  If I operate in both countries, what's the process for me to tell the "other" country to "stick it, I'm using the other country's accounting and tax policies"?

Aoyagi 11y ago

Well, you said it yourself. The companies do lobby for loopholes, knowing they will be better off than other. As a results, the companies in question have at least the same share of blame as the politicians.

crusso 11y ago
Blaming lobbyists for lobbying is like blaming ants for finding piles of sugar that are carelessly left around. The government is supposed to consist of our better angels that act in a more ethical manner to a higher standard than the cogs just functioning in the system that the government creates. If the government doesn't consist of these better angels, why do we give it such vast and sweeping powers to invade and control our lives?
- Aoyagi 11y ago
  That's like saying "don't blame the murderer, blame police for not saving you while you were being continuously stabbed for two hours"...
  - icebraining 11y ago
    If the police actively helped the murderers, I'd certainly blame them.
  - crusso 11y ago
    That's a poor analogy since murder is illegal. What Google is doing is within the law and a part of the framework created by the government.
    - Aoyagi 11y ago
      Tax dodging is also against the spirit of the law, which is a direct result of companies lobbying for loopholes they can use. Said companies are the initiators, not the corrupt/dumb politicians (who are, of course, also to blame).