6 ms·

The request they submitted to Apple was clearly written by competent people. They knew exactly what and why they wanted to do, how Apple can help and why only A

by qb45 11y ago

The request they submitted to Apple was clearly written by competent people. They knew exactly what and why they wanted to do, how Apple can help and why only Apple can help.

nitrogen 11y ago
There is one thing the FBI is very good at, and that's writing a compelling narrative. It's possible that there are highly competently people who know everything, but it's also possible there are moderately but not dazzlingly competent people who are really good at writing a story that feels complete and keeps one from asking questions outside the narrative.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- oh_sigh 11y ago
  You don't just make up deep technical knowledge with a compelling narrative.
  - qb45 11y ago
    Though, on second thought, I have to add that we don't know how many back-and-forth mail exchanges happened before they were able to come up with the officially published request. Maybe they were just competent at working around excuses from Apple.
jeffmould 11y ago
I think part of that is Apple is/was actively working with the FBI to find alternative solutions. I would bet that the engineers described what would need to happen, i.e. the new OS. As is often the case, the Apple engineers probably documented alternative solutions. The FBI took that "solution" and ran with what they described. It's the "well Apple told us this is the only way to do this, but they won't do it for us" scenario.
- qb45 11y ago
  Well, that's the overhead of selling closed-source devices. If you think about it, consulting vendors is probably a better use of taxpayer money then RE-ing every stupid crypto system on the market. They contacted Apple, did their homework and came up with specific and generally sane demands. They even went as far as suggesting to perform the hacking at Apple site to ensure that insecure firmware doesn't leak outside. BTW, this last part looks very much like a response to concerns voiced by Apple, which means that the official statements from both sides are just a tip of the iceberg.
  - IncRnd 11y ago
    >> Well, that's the overhead of selling closed-source devices. Closed-source may be a pet-peeve of yours, but it has nothing to do with any of this.
    - Spivak 11y ago
      Sure it does. If all the hardware and software associated with iPhones was open-source Apple could tell the FBI to fuck off and write their own firmware. Then the only thing they would need Apple for is signing it once it's complete. And if each user could sign their own firmware updates with a key based on their password or provide their own key then it's game over. They've put themselves in a weird legal situation because they've made it so that they are the only ones who can actually write and sign the firmware the FBI is demanding. A judge would laugh them out of the courtroom if the FBI was technically capable of writing the firmware and demanded Apple's help because it was too hard.
      - djrogers 11y ago
        > Spivak 1 hour ago Sure it does. If all the hardware and software associated with iPhones was open-source Apple could tell the FBI to off and write their own firmware. No, not based on the interpretation of the all writs act that the FBI is attempting to use. As far as the FBI is concerned, they could force my Grandma to write a backdoor if they deemed her the best person to do so. Given that she can't answer the phone most days it'd be a lon wait, but I wouldn't put t past them. --edit to correct auto-correct
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by qb45 11y ago

The request they submitted to Apple was clearly written by competent people. They knew exactly what and why they wanted to do, how Apple can help and why only Apple can help.

nitrogen 11y ago

There is one thing the FBI is very good at, and that's writing a compelling narrative. It's possible that there are highly competently people who know everything, but it's also possible there are moderately but not dazzlingly competent people who are really good at writing a story that feels complete and keeps one from asking questions outside the narrative.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
oh_sigh 11y ago
You don't just make up deep technical knowledge with a compelling narrative.
- qb45 11y ago
  Though, on second thought, I have to add that we don't know how many back-and-forth mail exchanges happened before they were able to come up with the officially published request. Maybe they were just competent at working around excuses from Apple.

jeffmould 11y ago

I think part of that is Apple is/was actively working with the FBI to find alternative solutions. I would bet that the engineers described what would need to happen, i.e. the new OS. As is often the case, the Apple engineers probably documented alternative solutions. The FBI took that "solution" and ran with what they described. It's the "well Apple told us this is the only way to do this, but they won't do it for us" scenario.

qb45 11y ago
Well, that's the overhead of selling closed-source devices. If you think about it, consulting vendors is probably a better use of taxpayer money then RE-ing every stupid crypto system on the market. They contacted Apple, did their homework and came up with specific and generally sane demands. They even went as far as suggesting to perform the hacking at Apple site to ensure that insecure firmware doesn't leak outside. BTW, this last part looks very much like a response to concerns voiced by Apple, which means that the official statements from both sides are just a tip of the iceberg.
- IncRnd 11y ago
  >> Well, that's the overhead of selling closed-source devices. Closed-source may be a pet-peeve of yours, but it has nothing to do with any of this.
  - Spivak 11y ago
    Sure it does. If all the hardware and software associated with iPhones was open-source Apple could tell the FBI to fuck off and write their own firmware. Then the only thing they would need Apple for is signing it once it's complete. And if each user could sign their own firmware updates with a key based on their password or provide their own key then it's game over. They've put themselves in a weird legal situation because they've made it so that they are the only ones who can actually write and sign the firmware the FBI is demanding. A judge would laugh them out of the courtroom if the FBI was technically capable of writing the firmware and demanded Apple's help because it was too hard.
    - djrogers 11y ago
      > Spivak 1 hour ago Sure it does. If all the hardware and software associated with iPhones was open-source Apple could tell the FBI to off and write their own firmware. No, not based on the interpretation of the all writs act that the FBI is attempting to use. As far as the FBI is concerned, they could force my Grandma to write a backdoor if they deemed her the best person to do so. Given that she can't answer the phone most days it'd be a lon wait, but I wouldn't put t past them. --edit to correct auto-correct

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]