3 ms·

The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty. Since 1975 there is a

The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty. Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), there is a proper and separate legal system, there a real political process with a parliament and an executive and many other changes. Trade is now only a part of a much bigger story. In 1975 there wasn't even a flag - the circle of yellow stars was a symbol used by different pan-national organisation (that still exists) with no relation at all to the EEC.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
> The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty Under its current name, yes, but the European Union we know today is really the successor to the European Communities of yesteryear. > Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), Which the UK doesn't participate in, mostly. > there is a proper and separate legal system, This isn't new. There has been EU law since before the UK joined. The European Communities Act 1972 specifically provides for the conversion of EU law into UK law, and its supremacy over UK law. > there a real political process with a parliament and an executive and many other changes. The European Parliament existed long before the UK joined, and has been named that since 1962. But in fairness, it only started having elections in 1979 (it was previously appointed). The European Commission, the executive, also existed before the UK joined. It has been a single body since 1967 (and there were three executives before that - their merger is sometimes considered the beginning of the modern EU). > Trade is now only a part of a much bigger story. It's always been part of a bigger story. The European Economic Community, after all, was only one of the three European Communities we joined. > In 1975 there wasn't even a flag - the circle of yellow stars was a symbol used by different pan-national organisation (that still exists) with no relation at all to the EEC. So? Lots of international organisations have flags. The Commonwealth of Nations has its own flag, and it's never considered a superstate.
- calpaterson 11y ago
  Most of these ultimately come down to a Ship of Theseus problem - how many changes can something be subject to until it becomes a different thing altogether? Is the European Parliament of today really the same as the unelected body of 1962? Is the judicial system really the same one? Clearly you think that it is the same body. I hope you can also see how others could be cynical about this expanded scope and view it as surprising and undesirable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    Yeah, I can understand that. Undoubtedly the EU has changed over time, and many people might not like those changes. I'm just suspicious of the claim that the EU is very different from the EC voted on in 1975. In some respects it is, but I feel it is misleading to look back and say it was just something like a loose free trade agreement. It was much more than that even when we originally joined, though it could be argued that the general public weren't very aware of it. On the other hand, I don't know if the general public understands the EU now, either.
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  In the UK, the EU is a topic like vaccines, evolution or climate change is in other countries. A decades long torrent of anti-EU propaganda has left people adrift from any bedrock of facts to begin a discussion.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

> The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty Under its current name, yes, but the European Union we know today is really the successor to the European Communities of yesteryear. > Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), Which the UK doesn't participate in, mostly. > there is a proper and separate legal system, This isn't new. There has been EU law since before the UK joined. The European Communities Act 1972 specifically provides for the conversion of EU law into UK law, and its supremacy over UK law. > there a real political process with a parliament and an executive and many other changes. The European Parliament existed long before the UK joined, and has been named that since 1962. But in fairness, it only started having elections in 1979 (it was previously appointed). The European Commission, the executive, also existed before the UK joined. It has been a single body since 1967 (and there were three executives before that - their merger is sometimes considered the beginning of the modern EU). > Trade is now only a part of a much bigger story. It's always been part of a bigger story. The European Economic Community, after all, was only one of the three European Communities we joined. > In 1975 there wasn't even a flag - the circle of yellow stars was a symbol used by different pan-national organisation (that still exists) with no relation at all to the EEC. So? Lots of international organisations have flags. The Commonwealth of Nations has its own flag, and it's never considered a superstate.

calpaterson 11y ago
Most of these ultimately come down to a Ship of Theseus problem - how many changes can something be subject to until it becomes a different thing altogether? Is the European Parliament of today really the same as the unelected body of 1962? Is the judicial system really the same one? Clearly you think that it is the same body. I hope you can also see how others could be cynical about this expanded scope and view it as surprising and undesirable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Yeah, I can understand that. Undoubtedly the EU has changed over time, and many people might not like those changes. I'm just suspicious of the claim that the EU is very different from the EC voted on in 1975. In some respects it is, but I feel it is misleading to look back and say it was just something like a loose free trade agreement. It was much more than that even when we originally joined, though it could be argued that the general public weren't very aware of it. On the other hand, I don't know if the general public understands the EU now, either.
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
In the UK, the EU is a topic like vaccines, evolution or climate change is in other countries. A decades long torrent of anti-EU propaganda has left people adrift from any bedrock of facts to begin a discussion.