4 ms·

Context: I'm a big proponent of the basic income. That said, it seems too much to say "Unemployment is good." It's hard to disentangle the effects of poverty v

by scarmig 11y ago

Context: I'm a big proponent of the basic income. That said, it seems too much to say "Unemployment is good." It's hard to disentangle the effects of poverty versus unemployment, but there are pretty strong hints that having a (good) job is good for health--prolonged unemployment from solidly middle class jobs leads to depression, and people die at higher rates after retiring. People need a purpose and outlet for their creativity, and a sense of order and direction for their lives: sitting at home all day playing video games would be disastrous, and encouraging automation (which a basic income will do) will make it even harder to get entry level positions. We've got to enable some kind of meaningful labor (market-compensated or not) that people still can engage in after the basic income is implemented.

rqebmm 11y ago
It might be more accurate to say "being required to be employed is bad" since 'unemployment' is a loaded word. But then again, that's OP's point.
intopieces 11y ago
>We've got to enable some kind of meaningful labor (market-compensated or not) that people still can engage in after the basic income is implemented. Are there no charities, no community organizations, no sports teams? Why trade the forced labor of market compensation for forced labor of government compensation? Meaningful labor already exists outside of market compensation. Anything the government would implement would just be beaurocracy soaking up funds that should be going towards the basic income.
pasquinelli 11y ago
there're two distinct senses for the word "work" that're pertinent. let's call it toil when we're given work to do, and play when we find our own work to do. in my experience, i see we're conditioned from childhood to think that toil is the normal way in which we're to make ourselves useful, or rather that it's the normal way in which we're made useful. we're also conditioned to think that play is kids stuff, that it isn't serious. so play becomes stunted, not maturing past kids stuff, and toil becomes serious and responsible, when actually it's infantile. so, you get laid off and find yourself, first of all under stress because your financial situation is uncertain, but secondly wasting away as a person and frittering you newly abundant free time playing video games. i don't think that points to your deep need to toil, to be given work to do. it's evidence of a poorly developed ability to play, that is to find work to put yourself to. as for me, i've had a few stints of unemployment and it's improved everything in my life, except my bank account. and when i got work again, everything became worse, again, except my bank account. now, like i said, this is just my own experience, but though i hear often enough that people have a real need to toil, i've never seen it in my actual experience. on the other hand i can see a real human need to play, which most people are deprived of. and, of course, a need for money, which is the only tangible thing people get from their toil.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Spot on.
TaylorAlexander 11y ago
I don't think anyone is proposing that we outlaw work, so I fail to see the point of your final sentence. Meaningful labor will never go away as long as people are free to choose what they want to do. Personally I just don't think it makes sense as a society to continue expecting everyone to work to survive. We don't need everyone to work all of the time. What if everyone worked 6 months out of the year? We'd all be fine, and likely much, much happier. I also think it's unlikely that people would spend all of their time playing video games. Sure, in today's overworked society all anyone wants to do when they get a free moment is zone out. But if people weren't so overworked, they'd likely seek out meaningful things of their own free will. No need for us to worry about them, humans have a natural inclination to seek interesting stimulation. Many people will get stuck on boring things, but many people will choose to get more out of life and as someone who would be in the latter category I want to live in a society where that is possible.

by scarmig 11y ago

rqebmm 11y ago

It might be more accurate to say "being required to be employed is bad" since 'unemployment' is a loaded word. But then again, that's OP's point.

intopieces 11y ago

>We've got to enable some kind of meaningful labor (market-compensated or not) that people still can engage in after the basic income is implemented. Are there no charities, no community organizations, no sports teams? Why trade the forced labor of market compensation for forced labor of government compensation? Meaningful labor already exists outside of market compensation. Anything the government would implement would just be beaurocracy soaking up funds that should be going towards the basic income.

pasquinelli 11y ago

there're two distinct senses for the word "work" that're pertinent. let's call it toil when we're given work to do, and play when we find our own work to do. in my experience, i see we're conditioned from childhood to think that toil is the normal way in which we're to make ourselves useful, or rather that it's the normal way in which we're made useful. we're also conditioned to think that play is kids stuff, that it isn't serious. so play becomes stunted, not maturing past kids stuff, and toil becomes serious and responsible, when actually it's infantile. so, you get laid off and find yourself, first of all under stress because your financial situation is uncertain, but secondly wasting away as a person and frittering you newly abundant free time playing video games. i don't think that points to your deep need to toil, to be given work to do. it's evidence of a poorly developed ability to play, that is to find work to put yourself to. as for me, i've had a few stints of unemployment and it's improved everything in my life, except my bank account. and when i got work again, everything became worse, again, except my bank account. now, like i said, this is just my own experience, but though i hear often enough that people have a real need to toil, i've never seen it in my actual experience. on the other hand i can see a real human need to play, which most people are deprived of. and, of course, a need for money, which is the only tangible thing people get from their toil.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
Spot on.

TaylorAlexander 11y ago

I don't think anyone is proposing that we outlaw work, so I fail to see the point of your final sentence. Meaningful labor will never go away as long as people are free to choose what they want to do. Personally I just don't think it makes sense as a society to continue expecting everyone to work to survive. We don't need everyone to work all of the time. What if everyone worked 6 months out of the year? We'd all be fine, and likely much, much happier. I also think it's unlikely that people would spend all of their time playing video games. Sure, in today's overworked society all anyone wants to do when they get a free moment is zone out. But if people weren't so overworked, they'd likely seek out meaningful things of their own free will. No need for us to worry about them, humans have a natural inclination to seek interesting stimulation. Many people will get stuck on boring things, but many people will choose to get more out of life and as someone who would be in the latter category I want to live in a society where that is possible.