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Is it ever immoral to visit a country as a tourist? If North Korea does not fall into this category what country does? I can't imagine being excited about vis

Is it ever immoral to visit a country as a tourist? If North Korea does not fall into this category what country does? I can't imagine being excited about visiting Phnom Penh during the Khemer Rouge killing field days. Is visiting Pyongyang acceptable when conditions in North Korea are so deplorable? Why contribute to propping up such an evil regime?

vinceguidry 11y ago
It is not immoral or unethical to visit North Korea. You have to realize that autocratic regimes thrive in isolation. The most effective tactic they have to remain in power is to keep the population ignorant of everything else around them. By visiting the country you may put a small amount of money in the regime's pockets, but you're doing the far nobler duty of bringing the outside world to the North Koreans. Also spending money in North Korea is likely to put more money in the locals' pockets than in the regime's.
nitrogen 11y ago
I've never visited any such countries, but the argument could be made that every tiny bit of foreign exposure the residents get helps to counteract the local propaganda, even in tightly controlled settings like Pyongyang.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  Yes, one can make that argument. Is there ever a situation in which it is immoral to visit a country and help its regime by spending money there? For me I think North Korea qualifies.
  - treve 11y ago
    Then the answer to your question is yes. It it sometimes immoral to some people, and you are one of them.
  - a3n 11y ago
    It's complicated. Yes, tourism brings money and legitimacy. However, the citizens of every country are our brothers and sisters, and the more we get to know and understand each other the better. Consider, "You're not allowed to know and talk to this person." Wait, what?
  - RangerScience 11y ago
    Well, consider. If I go to NK and in doing so help the regime by $5, but I get to talk to a few people unchaperoned, giving them some exposure to the outside, is that worth it? If instead, it's $5,000 - is that worth it? So on and so forth. You also have the consideration as to where that money goes - if 90% goes towards maintaining infrastructure - even if it's infrastructure the average person never gets to use - is that worth it, for the future of the country, regardless of government? But what if 90% is pocketed by corrupt officials? Passing judgment is complicated.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
atemerev 11y ago
Not only it isn't immoral, it is highly moral and the best you personally can do for them. I was born in the Soviet Union. It has fallen because of Western tourists coming there, providing the real evidence of the world from the other side of the curtain. Soviet government welcomed foreign tourists, as they were genuinely concerned about what Western countries are thinking about the USSR (for some reason; BTW, Russia is still very sensitive to this). But soon, Soviet people started to think of unthinkable questions, such as "why all these tourists from purposedly struggling capitalist countries are so well fed and well dressed?". North Korea's government is making the same mistake.
- cfcef 11y ago
  That's absurd. We are talking about a totalitarian regime which does not care in the least what the West thinks, which carefully ushers tourists who feed it the hard foreign currency it needs through a well-honed propaganda machine (read the blog posts of people doing the tour - they all get bused to the same damn statues and propaganda museums and places) surrounded only by hand-picked minders & chaperones chosen for their loyalty with no contact with the general population, with most tours in a city, Pyongyang, whose populations is also chosen for loyalty to the regime. Try to go 'off script' and you'll see how they treat tourists. Thinking you'll change anyone's mind is as sad and pathetic as the people who go there and drop a Bible behind a toilet and think they have any chance of making a difference. Real evidence of the world from the other side of the curtain is provided by Chinese & Korean smugglers smuggling in K-dramas and hard drives stuffed full of forbidden foreign media and balloon drops from missionary networks. You aren't doing jack by going to NK as a tourist. You're propping up one of the most evil regimes with your money - no ifs, ands, or buts. At least when people waste money climbing Mount Everest, they're only endangering themselves.
  - atemerev 11y ago
    > We are talking about a totalitarian regime which does not care in the least what the West thinks You are wrong. First, totalitarian regimes care _a lot_ about what the West thinks. I know it because I grew up in one. They have to be just scary enough, look crazy enough, and display some signs of "progress" enough (like — can anybody in the West organise Mass Games? Look at our highly efficient society!) Modern Russia is, unfortunately, now falling in the same behaviour pattern. Now, of course, tourists that are allowed to contact foreigners, especially Westerners, are filtered through layers and layers of state security. But it is impossible to do thorough filtering. You can't stop kitchen talks (they attempted to do it in Soviet Union and East Germany, but failed). Despite you always are in well-staged Truman show, it is not perfect, and real world is always showing through cracks, and most importantly, they can see _you_ through cracks. Back in USSR, in town of Omsk in Siberia where I grew up, a foreign tourist was a legendary event to be talked about for months (which is why it is of uttermost importance to travel beyond capital cities, where life is less staged and opportunities of random encounters are more numerous) — and if he managed to leave some artefacts, like US-made pen or postage stamps, they were caressed as real treasures, the evidence of world beyond the wall. And, of course, smugglers and missionaries are also doing their jobs (VHSs with Hollywood movies also played their part in the fall of USSR). But not everybody can be a smuggler or missionary. Everybody can be a tourist and do their part, though. And about the money — as a tourist, you'll hardly help the evil regime with more than $1000-$2000 (do you know how much a rocket costs? This is a small change). North Korean government is not doing it for your money. They want to look good in your eyes, to pretend they are not that evil (see that other comment in this thread — they want more people to think that way).
deleted 11y ago
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dennisgorelik 11y ago
You are assuming that North Korean regime is bad for the world. It is not necessarily the case. North Korea serves as a warning to other countries about what NOT to do. It works especially well because there is South Korea right next to it. North Korean leadership learned coexist with countries around it and even let outsiders research itself to some degree. It would be a shame not to use that possibility.

vinceguidry 11y ago

It is not immoral or unethical to visit North Korea. You have to realize that autocratic regimes thrive in isolation. The most effective tactic they have to remain in power is to keep the population ignorant of everything else around them. By visiting the country you may put a small amount of money in the regime's pockets, but you're doing the far nobler duty of bringing the outside world to the North Koreans. Also spending money in North Korea is likely to put more money in the locals' pockets than in the regime's.

nitrogen 11y ago

I've never visited any such countries, but the argument could be made that every tiny bit of foreign exposure the residents get helps to counteract the local propaganda, even in tightly controlled settings like Pyongyang.

yequalsx 11y ago
Yes, one can make that argument. Is there ever a situation in which it is immoral to visit a country and help its regime by spending money there? For me I think North Korea qualifies.
- treve 11y ago
  Then the answer to your question is yes. It it sometimes immoral to some people, and you are one of them.
- a3n 11y ago
  It's complicated. Yes, tourism brings money and legitimacy. However, the citizens of every country are our brothers and sisters, and the more we get to know and understand each other the better. Consider, "You're not allowed to know and talk to this person." Wait, what?
- RangerScience 11y ago
  Well, consider. If I go to NK and in doing so help the regime by $5, but I get to talk to a few people unchaperoned, giving them some exposure to the outside, is that worth it? If instead, it's $5,000 - is that worth it? So on and so forth. You also have the consideration as to where that money goes - if 90% goes towards maintaining infrastructure - even if it's infrastructure the average person never gets to use - is that worth it, for the future of the country, regardless of government? But what if 90% is pocketed by corrupt officials? Passing judgment is complicated.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

atemerev 11y ago

Not only it isn't immoral, it is highly moral and the best you personally can do for them. I was born in the Soviet Union. It has fallen because of Western tourists coming there, providing the real evidence of the world from the other side of the curtain. Soviet government welcomed foreign tourists, as they were genuinely concerned about what Western countries are thinking about the USSR (for some reason; BTW, Russia is still very sensitive to this). But soon, Soviet people started to think of unthinkable questions, such as "why all these tourists from purposedly struggling capitalist countries are so well fed and well dressed?". North Korea's government is making the same mistake.

cfcef 11y ago
That's absurd. We are talking about a totalitarian regime which does not care in the least what the West thinks, which carefully ushers tourists who feed it the hard foreign currency it needs through a well-honed propaganda machine (read the blog posts of people doing the tour - they all get bused to the same damn statues and propaganda museums and places) surrounded only by hand-picked minders & chaperones chosen for their loyalty with no contact with the general population, with most tours in a city, Pyongyang, whose populations is also chosen for loyalty to the regime. Try to go 'off script' and you'll see how they treat tourists. Thinking you'll change anyone's mind is as sad and pathetic as the people who go there and drop a Bible behind a toilet and think they have any chance of making a difference. Real evidence of the world from the other side of the curtain is provided by Chinese & Korean smugglers smuggling in K-dramas and hard drives stuffed full of forbidden foreign media and balloon drops from missionary networks. You aren't doing jack by going to NK as a tourist. You're propping up one of the most evil regimes with your money - no ifs, ands, or buts. At least when people waste money climbing Mount Everest, they're only endangering themselves.
- atemerev 11y ago
  > We are talking about a totalitarian regime which does not care in the least what the West thinks You are wrong. First, totalitarian regimes care _a lot_ about what the West thinks. I know it because I grew up in one. They have to be just scary enough, look crazy enough, and display some signs of "progress" enough (like — can anybody in the West organise Mass Games? Look at our highly efficient society!) Modern Russia is, unfortunately, now falling in the same behaviour pattern. Now, of course, tourists that are allowed to contact foreigners, especially Westerners, are filtered through layers and layers of state security. But it is impossible to do thorough filtering. You can't stop kitchen talks (they attempted to do it in Soviet Union and East Germany, but failed). Despite you always are in well-staged Truman show, it is not perfect, and real world is always showing through cracks, and most importantly, they can see _you_ through cracks. Back in USSR, in town of Omsk in Siberia where I grew up, a foreign tourist was a legendary event to be talked about for months (which is why it is of uttermost importance to travel beyond capital cities, where life is less staged and opportunities of random encounters are more numerous) — and if he managed to leave some artefacts, like US-made pen or postage stamps, they were caressed as real treasures, the evidence of world beyond the wall. And, of course, smugglers and missionaries are also doing their jobs (VHSs with Hollywood movies also played their part in the fall of USSR). But not everybody can be a smuggler or missionary. Everybody can be a tourist and do their part, though. And about the money — as a tourist, you'll hardly help the evil regime with more than $1000-$2000 (do you know how much a rocket costs? This is a small change). North Korean government is not doing it for your money. They want to look good in your eyes, to pretend they are not that evil (see that other comment in this thread — they want more people to think that way).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

dennisgorelik 11y ago

You are assuming that North Korean regime is bad for the world. It is not necessarily the case. North Korea serves as a warning to other countries about what NOT to do. It works especially well because there is South Korea right next to it. North Korean leadership learned coexist with countries around it and even let outsiders research itself to some degree. It would be a shame not to use that possibility.