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Imagine you are in a small hospital room and unable to get out. A 300 pound 6'2 dude is yelling that he's going to kill you. His brain is so scrambled that the

by davak 11y ago

Imagine you are in a small hospital room and unable to get out. A 300 pound 6'2 dude is yelling that he's going to kill you. His brain is so scrambled that the tazor did nothing. You are backed into a corner and he's walking toward you.

Zigurd 11y ago
In an age where such places have surveillance video you would think we don't need hypothetical scenarios. We'd have video of someone taking a solid hit from a Tazer and continuing an attack. But let's try this hypothetical: Imagine you are in a country without armed private security and only a subset of police are armed. Where are all the people who've been killed by 300 lbs crazed people?
- tamana 11y ago
  They are in the imagination of armed officers, which is all the the law requires :-(
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  It's not that hard to find instances of crazed people committing murder or other serious acts of violence. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-murdered-three-friends-meth-fueled-killing-spree-sexually-assaulted-witness-hunt-roadkill-deer.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-... http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder-suspect-says-meth-fueled-attacks-accomplice-provides/article_8e558f4d-9aa3-5336-acc8-3b510fdaf9ae.html http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-set-bed-fire-murder-panic-article-1.2493720 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-se... http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_payne_man_now_charged_wit.html http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_pay... http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of-woman-murdered-by-crazed-hammerwielding-motherinlaw-20160204-gmmcz4.html http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of... http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php European nations will likely have fewer such problems than we do - our population is much more violent. As Scott Alexander once quipped, "Who'd have thought populating half a country with the descendants of a group of people called "Border Reavers" would cause so much trouble?" https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 I'm not trying to say that the police were justified in this incident - note that I'm a huge critic of American policing. I'm merely pointing out that the threat is quite real.
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    That's not what I was asking. I was asking: Does armed security, or, for that matter, armed police make for fewer such cases. There are places where security guards and police do without guns in normal duties. Perhaps it's, at least in part, because policing and security sets the tone, that they have to do more deescalation before drawing a gun, that they have less violence. [EDIT:] Has anyplace ever become more safe by putting more guns in the hands of armed security and police?
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      Presumably the incident where the crazed lady stabbed the (unarmed) security guards could have been prevented by tazering her. Having practiced (simulated) knife combat, I'd certainly consider a long range weapon to be more effective than grappling. If you are charged with protecting people from a crazy lady with a knife, would you turn down the tazer or gun? (If you believe it doesn't improve your odds of survival, you of course would.) Given that many of these crazy people incidents happen away from security guards, it's hardly clear that "policing and security sets the tone". The US is just a highly violent place. What sort of evidence are you looking for?
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Mental illness is not a predictor of violent behaviour. You're falling for (probably) conjunction fallacy and confirmation bias. You find newspaper reports because those incidents are rare compared to all other murder; you use those newspaper reports (of rare events) to say "look how common it is". (The SOMD link isn't loading for me) Note that all but one of your links involve drug abuse. Here the violence isn't due to mental illness, but to drug abuse. Drug & Alcohol addiction is a predictor of violent behaviour. (Much stronger than mental illness.)
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      Although I doubt you are correct, I didn't actually make any claims about mental illness. You seem to be arguing against something I didn't say.
DanBC 11y ago
You risk assess the situation before you go in the room. You make sure every room has panic alarms, or that individuals have panic alarms. You make sure that the patient is never between you and the door. (All of this is standard practice). You have two (or more) members of staff dealing with that person. You de-escalate at every opportunity. You have stuff like rapid tranquilisation and restraint available (although these are methods of last resort).

by davak 11y ago

Zigurd 11y ago

In an age where such places have surveillance video you would think we don't need hypothetical scenarios. We'd have video of someone taking a solid hit from a Tazer and continuing an attack. But let's try this hypothetical: Imagine you are in a country without armed private security and only a subset of police are armed. Where are all the people who've been killed by 300 lbs crazed people?

tamana 11y ago
They are in the imagination of armed officers, which is all the the law requires :-(
yummyfajitas 11y ago
It's not that hard to find instances of crazed people committing murder or other serious acts of violence. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-murdered-three-friends-meth-fueled-killing-spree-sexually-assaulted-witness-hunt-roadkill-deer.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3356115/Alabama-man-... http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder-suspect-says-meth-fueled-attacks-accomplice-provides/article_8e558f4d-9aa3-5336-acc8-3b510fdaf9ae.html http://mtstandard.com/crime-and-courts/missoula-motel-murder... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-set-bed-fire-murder-panic-article-1.2493720 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/arizona-man-meth-se... http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_payne_man_now_charged_wit.html http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/04/fort_pay... http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of-woman-murdered-by-crazed-hammerwielding-motherinlaw-20160204-gmmcz4.html http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/compensation-for-mother-of... http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php http://somd.com/news/headlines/2016/20355.php European nations will likely have fewer such problems than we do - our population is much more violent. As Scott Alexander once quipped, "Who'd have thought populating half a country with the descendants of a group of people called "Border Reavers" would cause so much trouble?" https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 https://twitter.com/slatestarcodex/status/672540086932779009 I'm not trying to say that the police were justified in this incident - note that I'm a huge critic of American policing. I'm merely pointing out that the threat is quite real.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  That's not what I was asking. I was asking: Does armed security, or, for that matter, armed police make for fewer such cases. There are places where security guards and police do without guns in normal duties. Perhaps it's, at least in part, because policing and security sets the tone, that they have to do more deescalation before drawing a gun, that they have less violence. [EDIT:] Has anyplace ever become more safe by putting more guns in the hands of armed security and police?
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Presumably the incident where the crazed lady stabbed the (unarmed) security guards could have been prevented by tazering her. Having practiced (simulated) knife combat, I'd certainly consider a long range weapon to be more effective than grappling. If you are charged with protecting people from a crazy lady with a knife, would you turn down the tazer or gun? (If you believe it doesn't improve your odds of survival, you of course would.) Given that many of these crazy people incidents happen away from security guards, it's hardly clear that "policing and security sets the tone". The US is just a highly violent place. What sort of evidence are you looking for?
- DanBC 11y ago
  Mental illness is not a predictor of violent behaviour. You're falling for (probably) conjunction fallacy and confirmation bias. You find newspaper reports because those incidents are rare compared to all other murder; you use those newspaper reports (of rare events) to say "look how common it is". (The SOMD link isn't loading for me) Note that all but one of your links involve drug abuse. Here the violence isn't due to mental illness, but to drug abuse. Drug & Alcohol addiction is a predictor of violent behaviour. (Much stronger than mental illness.)
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Although I doubt you are correct, I didn't actually make any claims about mental illness. You seem to be arguing against something I didn't say.

DanBC 11y ago

You risk assess the situation before you go in the room. You make sure every room has panic alarms, or that individuals have panic alarms. You make sure that the patient is never between you and the door. (All of this is standard practice). You have two (or more) members of staff dealing with that person. You de-escalate at every opportunity. You have stuff like rapid tranquilisation and restraint available (although these are methods of last resort).